I was certain that the code made reference to conduit installations having to be parallel and/or perpindicular to the structure or somethng to that effect. Can anyone help me out a litle bit? In other words is there anywhere in the code that keeps me from running conduit "as the crow flies" across a building? justin
Workmanlike manner?
- Thread starter justin
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Workmanlike manner?
The 2005 adds a fine print to 110.12 for workmanship, stating that the ANSI/NECA 1-2000 Standard practices for good workmanship in electrical contracting is a document that describes what "neat and workmanlike" means.
As an AHJ I don't care how you run your pipe as long as it complies with it respective wiring method article.
The 2005 adds a fine print to 110.12 for workmanship, stating that the ANSI/NECA 1-2000 Standard practices for good workmanship in electrical contracting is a document that describes what "neat and workmanlike" means.
As an AHJ I don't care how you run your pipe as long as it complies with it respective wiring method article.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Workmanlike manner?
There is nothing in the NEC that would not allow you to install conduit or any wiring method "as the crow flies" as Ryan has said: as long as it is installed according to the applicable codes that apply to that wiring method.
With conduit and copper prices the way they are, it makes good cent's (pun intended).
[ October 27, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
There is nothing in the NEC that would not allow you to install conduit or any wiring method "as the crow flies" as Ryan has said: as long as it is installed according to the applicable codes that apply to that wiring method.
With conduit and copper prices the way they are, it makes good cent's (pun intended).
[ October 27, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Workmanlike manner?
That remind me of a service I put in when I was still doing contracting work. The building was actually crooked and I put a service on it that was straight. The owner wanted me to install it crooked so it would match the building that was listing about 3 or 4 degrees. I took it loose and moved it over at the top a bit. As far as I know the building is still standing.
That remind me of a service I put in when I was still doing contracting work. The building was actually crooked and I put a service on it that was straight. The owner wanted me to install it crooked so it would match the building that was listing about 3 or 4 degrees. I took it loose and moved it over at the top a bit. As far as I know the building is still standing.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Workmanlike manner?
The limited small amount of experience I have with conduit has taught me the importance of doing a neat job. We build machinery and if conduit is laid out such that it follows the machine framing, future additions and modifications are much easier to install. Additionally, the cosmetic appearance of our product is enhanced and it does make a difference. I would imagine that both these statements hold true for industrial design as well? If conduit runs begin to be installed hap-hazardly throughout a facility, I couldn't begin to imagine how complex they could get in the future as new conduit runs are forced to be bent around a spider web of past runs. I have seen examples of this in homes I have owned where previous owners added their own plumbing modifications. I had to rip out the entire system in one home and start over just to make sense of it all.
Just my 2 cents.
Bob
The limited small amount of experience I have with conduit has taught me the importance of doing a neat job. We build machinery and if conduit is laid out such that it follows the machine framing, future additions and modifications are much easier to install. Additionally, the cosmetic appearance of our product is enhanced and it does make a difference. I would imagine that both these statements hold true for industrial design as well? If conduit runs begin to be installed hap-hazardly throughout a facility, I couldn't begin to imagine how complex they could get in the future as new conduit runs are forced to be bent around a spider web of past runs. I have seen examples of this in homes I have owned where previous owners added their own plumbing modifications. I had to rip out the entire system in one home and start over just to make sense of it all.
Just my 2 cents.
Bob
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Bob, I respect your opinion, and I admire anyone who wants to take pride in their work, I just don't see how workmanship even falls within the scope of the code, which is the practical safegaurding of life, limb and property.
Bob, I respect your opinion, and I admire anyone who wants to take pride in their work, I just don't see how workmanship even falls within the scope of the code, which is the practical safegaurding of life, limb and property.
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Hey everyone-
I agree with the crooked pipe thing, cause if you have three pipes crooked and your straight your's looks wrong. I also agree to crow flys in attic spaces or areas unseen. But in areas that are seen even couplings are matched to existing. Of course all are safely and mechanically installed professionally.
Hey everyone-
I agree with the crooked pipe thing, cause if you have three pipes crooked and your straight your's looks wrong. I also agree to crow flys in attic spaces or areas unseen. But in areas that are seen even couplings are matched to existing. Of course all are safely and mechanically installed professionally.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Ryan,
You are correct. Justin's question was to code issues with regard to how conduit is run. I got off the track a little. I wonder how safe it would be to go into an area, whether visible or not, to work on a system or add another one when there are conduit runs laid out like a bowl of spagetti. Imagine entering a crawl space and having to crawl over, under, and through this mess. Could this be a safety issue?
Bob
Ryan,
You are correct. Justin's question was to code issues with regard to how conduit is run. I got off the track a little. I wonder how safe it would be to go into an area, whether visible or not, to work on a system or add another one when there are conduit runs laid out like a bowl of spagetti. Imagine entering a crawl space and having to crawl over, under, and through this mess. Could this be a safety issue?
Bob
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Justin, I think maybe your confusion as to a code reference comes from possibly looking at the code handbook at some time or another, rather than the code book itself. article 110-12 mechanical execution of work is the reference number. Code states all work to be executed in a workman like manner. NEC code handbook elaborates on what is considered by the handbook authors to be un workmanlike installations including non level and non plumb pipe runs.
As I am sure you know the handbook can be a very useful tool, however the explanations are the opinion of the authors only, and not the legal interpretation of the code book.
Justin, I think maybe your confusion as to a code reference comes from possibly looking at the code handbook at some time or another, rather than the code book itself. article 110-12 mechanical execution of work is the reference number. Code states all work to be executed in a workman like manner. NEC code handbook elaborates on what is considered by the handbook authors to be un workmanlike installations including non level and non plumb pipe runs.
As I am sure you know the handbook can be a very useful tool, however the explanations are the opinion of the authors only, and not the legal interpretation of the code book.
Re: Workmanlike manner?
I don't install my stuff wrong just because someone else does.I would defend my straight installation to the crooked ones anyday.As far as work in the attic,anyone who truly cares about their workmanship will install their runs neat and workmanlike wether it can be seen or not.
I don't install my stuff wrong just because someone else does.I would defend my straight installation to the crooked ones anyday.As far as work in the attic,anyone who truly cares about their workmanship will install their runs neat and workmanlike wether it can be seen or not.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Technically, since it has ANSI recognition, the NECA document is enforcible where OSHA maintains jursidiction;i.e., anywhere an "employee" may be affected.
lady sparks lover
Senior Member
Re: Workmanlike manner?
workmanlike manner or workwomanlike manner....
workmanlike manner or workwomanlike manner....
Re: Workmanlike manner?
We usually have a very similar phrase in our project specs. You have probably seen it in a project spec somewhere. We usually call out "parallel and perpendicular" for anything above grade and "as the crow flies" for under slab.
Steve
We usually have a very similar phrase in our project specs. You have probably seen it in a project spec somewhere. We usually call out "parallel and perpendicular" for anything above grade and "as the crow flies" for under slab.
Steve
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Touche'
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Workmanlike manner?
As a point of interest:
I remember a boutique-type shop in New York City where the EMT feeding wall lights was intentionally bent and run crooked and wavy to go along with the artsy theme of the store.
The electricians did a great job, and their work was better than some of the "artwork" in the store. It was really cool to see EMT shaped in waves and many other random shapes on the wall.
By all accounts this would be a far cry from "neat and workmanlike" but the pipe and boxes had the code required support, attachment, and maximum number of bends.
As a point of interest:
I remember a boutique-type shop in New York City where the EMT feeding wall lights was intentionally bent and run crooked and wavy to go along with the artsy theme of the store.
The electricians did a great job, and their work was better than some of the "artwork" in the store. It was really cool to see EMT shaped in waves and many other random shapes on the wall.
By all accounts this would be a far cry from "neat and workmanlike" but the pipe and boxes had the code required support, attachment, and maximum number of bends.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Has anyone here seen this guideline?
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Workmanlike manner?
I haven't seen it. I'm curious how it has received ANSI certification as a "National Consensus Standard." Theoretically, that means it has input from all interested parties; e.g.,IAEI, ICC, the Independent Electrical Contractors, etc.
I haven't seen it. I'm curious how it has received ANSI certification as a "National Consensus Standard." Theoretically, that means it has input from all interested parties; e.g.,IAEI, ICC, the Independent Electrical Contractors, etc.
stephenbrowndog
Member
Re: Workmanlike manner?
Craftsmanship, Install your conduit as if it had your name and telephone number on it on two foot centers. The NEC should not be an excuse or crutch for shotty workmanship.
Steve Brown
Craftsmanship, Install your conduit as if it had your name and telephone number on it on two foot centers. The NEC should not be an excuse or crutch for shotty workmanship.
Steve Brown
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