Workshop GFI Receptacles

[big john]

A homeowner has a small basement wood-working shop that needs a new receptacles and a new circuit pulled to it. On rare occasions, the basement has been known to flood with up to an inch of water.

I'm not going to put in any receptacles that aren't ground fault protected, but I'm not sure what is the best way to go about it; I'm worried about false trips on all the motor loads (some in the range of 1.5HP).

I'd like to protect everything at point-of-use with GFI receptacles simply because if there is a false trip, it doesn't kill the whole circuit and resetting it is a lot more convenient. Unless GFI receptacles are known to false trip a lot more than GFI breakers, in which case, I'll just protect it with a breaker.

Any experience or opinions on this?
Thanks a bunch.
-John

 

[Guest]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Forget about wiring the basement until it can be damp-proofed.

 

[inspector 102]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Using contractor series equipment in my own workshop, I have never had a problem with motor loading tripping out a GFCI. I agree if the basement has occasion to become a wet location, problems more serious exist before I would consider placing a workshop there. My workshop is protected by GFCI receptacles protecting 2 separate circuits in the area. The lighting and dust control system are not on GFCI because of the height being above 6'-8" for accessible outlets. The table saw, surface planer, jointer, radial arm saw, or drill press have never caused me any grief on these circuits.

 

[big john]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

The situation as it stands now is that the workshop already exists. What receptacles exist, the homeowner installed himself and it's obvious he's a pharmacologist, not an electrician, if you get the idea. Because of the shoddy design, a lot of equipment is run on extension cords anyway, and nothing at all is GFI protected, to make a bad situation worse.

I know the guy, and if I leave this alone until the basement is water proofed, there will never be a safe installation. Properly placed and protected receptacles will go a long way to improve this mess.

-John

[ September 22, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: big john ]

 

[Guest]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Maybe put down some duck boards. If anybody gets hurt regardless of your good intentions you will have the unclean hands.

Be sure to pull a permit on the job too.

 

[iwire]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Originally posted by awwt:
Maybe put down some duck boards.

Just curious do you do this for the required outdoor receptacle [210.52(E)] or do you "damp proof" all outside?

It is good to be concerned with safety but the customer has to take some responsibility too.

 

[Guest]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

I would just hate for the customer to jump like this when s/he grabs ahold of the drill press:

I try not to run power tools while standing it puddles.

../Wayne C.

[ September 22, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[jimb]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

GFCI's used to have a bum rap for nuisance tripping but I would live with that possibility if it were my workshop. I've been around a lot of GFCI's (breakers and recepts) on jobsites and I can't remember the last time one tripped for "no reason". Almost always a defective cord, connector, or tool was found to be at fault (no pun intended)

I suppose I'm going to feel really stupid when I hear the answer but what exactly is a "duck board"

Jim

 

[iwire]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Originally posted by awwt:
I try not to run power tools while standing it puddles.

Exactly you are taking responsibility for your own actions.

Yes, it is good to try not to stand in a puddle while using a power tool.

But the fact that an area may have or may get puddles does not prevent the installation and use of electrical outlets.

A double insulated or grounded properly functioning tool will not give a shock to the operator no mater what they are standing in.

The GFCI is just a back up in case of failure of the other systems.

A GFCI does not prevent a shock.

 

[roger]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Bob,

But the fact that an area may have or may get puddles does not prevent the installation and use of electrical outlets

if it did you and I would be in trouble because
construction jobs would be delayed forever.

 

[Guest]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

If somebody gets hurt the fine points won't comfort the injured (or dead) person.

The electrical contractor needs to take control of the job and make it as safe as possible.

Never let a homeowner dictate an electrical installation. Never. Been there, done that. Not worth it. Won't ever do it again. Never. The stakes are too high. The contractor must take full control of the job. Whatever it takes to make it safe.

As an aside electrical work becomes a lot more fun when you take control of the job. Try it, you'll like it.

You'll never forgive yourself if anybody gets hurt on your watch.

 

[Guest]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Originally posted by jimb:
<snip>I suppose I'm going to feel really stupid when I hear the answer but what exactly is a "duck board" Jim

A duck board is a wood overlay used to protect whatever is under it. Duck boards are used on "hot" roofs (like tar&gravel, torch down, etc.) when the rooftop needs to be walkable or is used as a deck. They are also used on restaurant floors to avoid slipping on wet/greasy kitchen floors. They are usually made in 4-foot by 4-foot panels and laid down in a grid. Duck boards would not be a solution, but it would be better than runnning power tools in an inch of water.

A few weeks back there was a picture of an aluminum ladder in a swimming pool with the electrician drilling a hole in a ceiling above the pool. There is not much difference between an inch and four-feet when it comes to water. You're either in it or you're not. If you would be uncomfortable drilling on a ladder in a pool, then you should feel the same way in one-inch of standing water. Of course the pool is more dangerous-- but not significantly. When you're dead, you're dead.

I am not comfortable with duck boards. If it was my job I would help the owner dewater his basement.

 

[russellroberts]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Awwt,I understand and respect your insistance on safety.

However,I can't count the times I've been ankle or even knee deep in mud with a hammer drill or band saw or sawzall.

I wouldn't do the al.ladder in the pool thing,but within reason,you gotta do what it takes to get the job done sometimes.

Like today,I built a residential service on a poured wall,using a hammer drill in the rain.

What can I say? I needed a draw.

Russell

 

[big john]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

I understand and respect that standpoint that the job should be left alone until the homeowner fixes the flooding problem.

You ever seen the movie The Money Pit? The house this workshop is in is a toned down version. Most of the problems are electrical, unfortinately. Getting the foundation dug up, sealed, and then having a sump pump installed (which is basically what would need to happen to keep this basement dry) are definitely at the bottom of this guys list. Like I said, I know him.

With that in mind: Is it better to have him walking all over extension cords that will one day be submerged in water? Or is it better that I just take what I can get and give him decently placed GFI protected receptacles that remove the necessity for extension cords and help provide a gaurd against electrocution? Me, personally, I would definitely sleep better with the latter of those two options.

I don't see a legal recourse against me for putting in a safer, code-compliant installation. If anything were to happen after the fact, it'd be because of a failure of a GFI receptacle or some other nonsense that I have absolutely no control over. (The insurance company knows those as Acts of God.)

My $0.02
-John

[ September 22, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: big john ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Wayne if a customer asks for an outdoor receptacle do you refuse to put it in until he covers his yard with an awning?

We are electricians if a customer needs outlets and they can be installed within the perimeters of the NEC, they should get the outlets.

The company I work for builds 2 to 5 supermarkets a year, the meat rooms, produce prep rooms all have outlets and all have water underfoot throughout the day.

The meat saws are 3PH 208V 20A, meat grinders 3PH 208V 50A.

All day long the operators of these machines have wet enough feet to be "grounded" and you know what? no one is getting shocks.

Would you refuse to provide power in these areas?

I agree an eye to safety is important, but refusing to provide outlets will only make the customers that need them do it themselves.

originally posted here 09-15-2003 21:34 by awwt

It's not about telling you how many receptacles you need: It's about experience saying that extension cords-- especially across doorways lead to fires and accidents.

So which is it Wayne, provide outlets to prevent the use of cords or refuse to install outlets because there is some water around?

And what of Rogers post, he is entirely correct most large construction sites are a muddy wet mess for months at a time, what would you do here?

My main point here Wayne it as not as easy as you make it sound to keep water and electricity apart and just because they are together does not necessarily mean danger.

 

[pierre]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Maybe I am missing the point of this thread, but I thought the reason for GFCI protection was safety, including safety in wet locations.
I am from the east, and I cannot remember a construction site that was/is not wet.

Pierre

 

[racraft]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

Somehow I think you all are missing something.

Big John originally stated that, "On rare occasions, the basement has been known to flood with up to an inch of water."

Now we can debate what "rare cccasions" means, but to me that means extremely infrequently. I would say along the lines with how often my own basement has flooded, which is twice in 15 years.

Does flooding on "rare occasions" "up to an inch" mean that someone cannot have a workshop or cannot use electric devices in the basement?

I think not. As long as codes are complied with, which means GFCI protection among other things, I see nothing wrong with electrical outlets or a workshop.

I might also caution the owner against using the workshop or the outlets when the flooding does occur. However, wet/dry shop vacs run on electricity, as do portable pumps, so any outlets installed will probably be used when the basement is flooded.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Workshop GFI Receptacles

I am not getting why I would be concerned with the basement that may or may not flood at some point. Why would this prevent me from installing my wiring? Why would this be my problem? My license is for electrical not waterproofing. What and odd twist to this topic. Bottom line unfinished basement, install the GFCI receptacles. End of story!