worried about street lite retrofit...

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lostinspace

Member
Location
Florida
I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction on this one. I've got a customer (HOA of a neighborhood) who is looking at retrofitting their street lites from 175w MH to 85w CFL's. They are going to use a lighting company to do the retrofit, but want me to wire the poles and run new conduit for lites they are adding to current layout. They also want me to continue maintaining the lites in the future. I have one major concern about this job: there are some strings of lites that are very long (1/4 mile-1/2 mile) with wire that was installed 25 years ago and is undersized for voltage drop (most lines have voltage drop of 10%+). I'm trying to find info on how low voltage will effect the life of the bulbs and quality of light output. I'm trying to give them a realistic view of how well this system will work since right now they think these lamps are gonna last 2+ years and have same light output(thanks to the lighting contractor). I haven't been involved in a retrofit with these lamps and need some education on the topic. Another question, anyone ever used 240 volt CFL's, seen that they are available, but no experience with them.
All answers much appreciated!

This is also my first post, but I have been checking out the forums for a couple months. Lots of good information!:grin:
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Since your reducing the load by almost half, the voltage drop will be reduced also, though if your adding a lot more fixtures, this may be a mute point.
 
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wireguru

Senior Member
slightily OT: A parking garage I use frequently replaced their MH (I assume MH, but I suppose it could have been something else -crisp white light output) lamps in their low bay fixtures with CFLs. I dont know the wattages involved but I can say the light output is crap. I dont care what the box for the lamps, or the lighting co that did the work says but the light sucks. Its a dim, dull dingy light -nothing like what they replaced.
 
L

lostinspace

Member
Location
Florida
hillbilly1 said:
Since your reducing the load by almost half, the voltage drop will be reduced also, though if your adding a lot more fixtures, this may be a mute point.
Click to expand...

i took that into account, not adding very many new lights, but thank you, my instinct and math still says the wire should be bigger...maybe an example would help...

-string of 12 lites, previously 240 v, but they want to change to 120 volt
first 200' of string #6 going north (will have 10 amps load)
-string tees off after this...
-coming off tee going east 300' of #6 then changes to #10 for 800'+(5 amps load on this part)
-coming off tee going west 300' of #6 then changes to #10 for 800'+(5 amps load on this part)

-this situation really bothers me at 120 volt
-i am considering suggesting to leave the string at 240 volts and using 240 volt cfl lamps but have no experience with them
-even if they went with this I am concerned that the lights will suffer significantly shorter life than listed for because of lower than expected voltage...maybe i'm wrong...and i also think that the listed light ouput will be lower due to low voltage...maybe wrong again...

trying to explore all options with this application before talking to customer
this might be one of those jobs i'll never be happy with...
 
F

frenchelectrican

Senior Member
Location
Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
IMO why not reconferagted by using MWBC ? if that possible otherwise it far much eaiser to get the 277V verison if you go that route you will have to keep in your mind you may end up have seperated 120 volt circuit for hoildays luminaire.

For the 240 volt lumiaire it may be not too bad if you have multi voltage ballast or electronic ballast which it will sense which voltage you are on and it will adjust to that voltage.

However there is a trend with electronic ballast which you only need one to work few diffrent voltage system.

Merci,Marc
 
Cavie

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
lostinspace said:
i took that into account, not adding very many new lights, but thank you, my instinct and math still says the wire should be bigger...maybe an example would help...

-string of 12 lites, previously 240 v, but they want to change to 120 volt
first 200' of string #6 going north (will have 10 amps load)
-string tees off after this...
-coming off tee going east 300' of #6 then changes to #10 for 800'+(5 amps load on this part)
-coming off tee going west 300' of #6 then changes to #10 for 800'+(5 amps load on this part)

-this situation really bothers me at 120 volt
-i am considering suggesting to leave the string at 240 volts and using 240 volt cfl lamps but have no experience with them
-even if they went with this I am concerned that the lights will suffer significantly shorter life than listed for because of lower than expected voltage...maybe i'm wrong...and i also think that the listed light ouput will be lower due to low voltage...maybe wrong again...

trying to explore all options with this application before talking to customer
this might be one of those jobs i'll never be happy with...
Click to expand...

If you change to 120 volt you will have to change the wires to add new WHITE neutrals per code. No reidentifying #6 and under.
 
weressl

weressl

Esteemed Member
Location
Texas by the Gulf, geat crab, great shrimp
lostinspace said:
I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction on this one. I've got a customer (HOA of a neighborhood) who is looking at retrofitting their street lites from 175w MH to 85w CFL's. They are going to use a lighting company to do the retrofit, but want me to wire the poles and run new conduit for lites they are adding to current layout. They also want me to continue maintaining the lites in the future. I have one major concern about this job: there are some strings of lites that are very long (1/4 mile-1/2 mile) with wire that was installed 25 years ago and is undersized for voltage drop (most lines have voltage drop of 10%+). I'm trying to find info on how low voltage will effect the life of the bulbs and quality of light output. I'm trying to give them a realistic view of how well this system will work since right now they think these lamps are gonna last 2+ years and have same light output(thanks to the lighting contractor). I haven't been involved in a retrofit with these lamps and need some education on the topic. Another question, anyone ever used 240 volt CFL's, seen that they are available, but no experience with them.
All answers much appreciated!

This is also my first post, but I have been checking out the forums for a couple months. Lots of good information!:grin:
Click to expand...

I would ask some questions about things that are unclear to me:

85W compact fluorescent? Is the loading 85W or it is 'equivalent to an 85W incandescent light source"? (Not that there is such a thing.)

Equivalent light output with a 175W MH? Numbers please. (An equivalent source would hardly be an 85W incandescent equivalent.)

240V? Even more interested in this animal. Does it have a range such as 208-240V?

2 years? For street lights it would be the equivalent of about 7000hrs or less. Not so good.

Lumen maintenance of the CFL's?

How about cold temperature start?

Are they increasing the number of fixtures?
 
PCN

PCN

Senior Member
Location
New England
Average initial lumen output for a 175w mh is around 13,000 lumens. Average rated lamp life 10,000 hrs.

Average initial lumen output for a 80w cfl around 6000 lumens, average lamp life 12,000 hrs.
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Forget about the voltage, VD and all that for now.
Lets talk about light sources, and lumens
The traditional streetlight source has been HPS.
Long life- 24,000 hours, relamp every 4 years
High lamp output in lumens, up to 40,000 lumens
Poor quality yellowish light
Great efficency (divide power/lumens)
Lamps contain mercury

HID
Medium life, 18,000 hours relamp about every three years
Great light quality, bright white
Good efficency
Lamps contain mercury

CFL
Very short lamp life 12,000 hours
low lumens 6,000
Good efficency
Lamps contain mercury
I have never heard of a street lighting application for CFL

Induction
Extra long lamp life of 100,000 hours
Lower lumens maybe 10,000
Bright white light
Instant on

When you look at lamp life, its a bell shaped curve, at the rated life, half the lamps are burnt out. 4,000 burning hours dusk to dawn, with your CFLs you will be relamping every 18 months.

I have done a few jobs with induction, its expensive but a great source.

Right now the trend is LED. There are a lot of successful LED street lighting applications:
Bright white light
Instant on
No hazardous materials
But
We don't know the rated life yet, its really dependant on the design, as 80% of the energy used goes to heat the junction. The better the design, the lower the temp, the longer the life.
Claims of up to 80,000 hours

Many manufactures make post top light retrofit kits, I have seen them from Hubble, Sylvania and others.
Or just replace the entire luminaire.

The owner won't like the CFLs it will be like a little candle. No street lighting designer would ever be able to use CFLs and meet the design standard in RP-8, recommended practice for roadway lighting.
My recommendation is LED.
Look for an energy grant from your POCO

Tom Baker
Member IES and IES Roadway Lighting Committee
 
Mr. Bill

Mr. Bill

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Do not go down to 120V for site lighting. The voltage drop will kill you. You can get 4 times the distance or 4 times the load at 240V. I don't see a MWBC helping with voltage drop much. At best you can get the distance to half of the 240V distance.

I hope the 85W fluorescent is actually referring to an induction lamp. Unless you're in a warm place year round you don't want CFL outdoors. And as others have said, with the lower wattage lamp you're likely to see significantly lower light levels.

I wouldn't worry more about the mercury content in fluorescent, induction, and HID lamps than the environmental impact of LED technology. Most of the mercury is embedded in the glass at end of lamp life. Trapped in the glass it can't harm the environment. LEDs don't have mercury but it is electronics. Electronics use all sorts of hazardous material that should be disposed of properly but never does. Using the mercury content in lamps as a sales point for LED I view along the lines of advertising hard candy as fat free. Just because it's fat free doesn't mean it's healthy. Just because it's mercury free doesn't mean it's environmentally friendly. How do we pick between mercury pollution or electronics pollution. Both suck.

Sounds like a good challenging project. Wish you luck.
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Mr. Bill said:
I wouldn't worry more about the mercury content in fluorescent, induction, and HID lamps than the environmental impact of LED technology. Most of the mercury is embedded in the glass at end of lamp life. . Electronics use all sorts of hazardous material that should be disposed of properly but never does.
.
Click to expand...


All the reports and articles I see in the LD+A (journal of the IES) state LEDs are mercury free. Do you have a source or article that discusses this? I want to properly informed.

Tom
 
W

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Mr. Bill is not saying that LEDs contain mercury (as far as I know, they do not).

What he is saying is that the total toxic 'footprint' of the LEDs is significant, owing to the various the various materials used in manufacture, and the various toxic materials present in the LEDs. They may not contain mercury, but they do contain other stuff.

I will not take a position on the relative hazard of disposal for LEDs versus mercury containing lamps. Too many details of what materials remain 'trapped' in what circumstances. My gut tells me that LEDs are safer than CFLs for landfill disposal, but I wouldn't back that up with more than a beer if shown otherwise.

-Jon
 
Mr. Bill

Mr. Bill

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I never said LED's have mercury. But they do have other harmful items. Finding out exactly what is difficult. They are electronics and gallium is heavily used. Many LED fixtures are assembled in China so most likely the soder used is lead based. I am not an expert on electronics and don't know all of what is in each type of product. I just know e-waste has been in the news a lot.

This is the most information I can find about what is in LED lighting.
http://www.cggc.duke.edu/environment/climatesolutions/greeneconomy_Ch1_LEDLighting.pdf

How big of a problem is mercury in lamps?
?if all 290 million CFLs sold in 2007 were sent to a landfill (versus recycled, as a worst case), they would add 0.13 metric tons, or 0.1%, to U.S. mercury emissions caused by humans? (U.S. DOE ENERGY STAR, 2008).

Before we jump on the bandwagon of LED marketing I think it's best to know what the secondary effects are of this new product. Expecially if their most popular selling point is the secondary effects of fluorescent lighting. When I have pressed manufacturers about the LED fixtures waste hazards they've side stepped the issue by talking about sending their old products overseas for reuse or recycling.
 
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