Worry too much in old age

[highline]

This has been done before in our plant and I question the practice. Example...large air circulator, 2 speed with pullchain switch. Switch breaks. Maint. guy replaces with any toggle switch that will fit. Has this affected the UL rateing by putting in a switch that isn't part of the original approved assembly. Am I just concerned about nothing ? This spreads to modifying machinery when it breaks down and temp. fixes become permanent.
Thanks

 

[mcclary's electrical]

This has been done before in our plant and I question the practice. Example...large air circulator, 2 speed with pullchain switch. Switch breaks. Maint. guy replaces with any toggle switch that will fit. Has this affected the UL rateing by putting in a switch that isn't part of the original approved assembly. Am I just concerned about nothing ? This spreads to modifying machinery when it breaks down and temp. fixes become permanent.
Thanks

Any time you add or change to a switch that wasn't there for the UL testing, means the UL test no longer applies.

 

[highline]

Any time you add or change to a switch that wasn't there for the UL testing, means the UL test no longer applies.

That's what I thought. What does this do to the liability factor when someone gets a shock or other injury that gets traced back to the improper part ?

 

[cowboyjwc]

My question would be, how improper of a part? A toggle switch for a pull chain switch or a 20 amp fuse for a 5 amp fuse? If it's an older piece of equipment it may not pass modern UL standards any way.

 

[Volta]

And depending on what type of equipment in what part of the country, it may not need to pass UL standards.

 

[Cold Fusion]

... Switch breaks. Maint. guy replaces with any toggle switch that will fit. Has this affected the UL rateing ...

The highlighted phrase is an issue. As cowbow noted, if the replacement part is not selected to meet or exceed the system requirements, it is not going to work or is not going to work safely. What difference does it matter if the original product was listed or not?

Any time you add or change to a switch that wasn't there for the UL testing, means the UL test no longer applies.

Keep in mind my background is industrial - so I am not talking about residential or even commercial, canned, listed appliances.

Parts fail in listed industrial panels - relays, control transformers, switches, meters and the like. Often the original parts are no longer available. Generally, a replacement-in-kind part is selected by engineering that meets the system requirements and is installed. Parts list is updated, and nobody calls for a NRTL field listing service.

Now if you were to call the NRTL rep and tell them, "We changed an AB-800T to a SQD-800HA. Is a field listing required?" I can guarrantee the response, "Absolutely required. Send us $20K. We will be right out."

I have yet to have had an AHJ tell me this was wrong. But they well could tomorrow. In which case I would smile and say, "Yes Sir."

... What does this do to the liability factor when someone gets a shock or other injury that gets traced back to the improper part ?

Your company is allowing, encouraging, directing sloppy maintenance practices that endangers workers - I hope someone puts them out of business before the body count gets too high.

Again, the issue is not is the equipment is listed. The issue is if the company management is doing their job.

cf

 

[mcclary's electrical]

The highlighted phrase is an issue. As cowbow noted, if the replacement part is not selected to meet or exceed the system requirements, it is not going to work or is not going to work safely. What difference does it matter if the original product was listed or not?


Keep in mind my background is industrial - so I am not talking about residential or even commercial, canned, listed appliances.

Parts fail in listed industrial panels - relays, control transformers, switches, meters and the like. Often the original parts are no longer available. Generally, a replacement-in-kind part is selected by engineering that meets the system requirements and is installed. Parts list is updated, and nobody calls for a NRTL field listing service.

Now if you were to call the NRTL rep and tell them, "We changed an AB-800T to a SQD-800HA. Is a field listing required?" I can guarrantee the response, "Absolutely required. Send us $20K. We will be right out."

I have yet to have had an AHJ tell me this was wrong. But they well could tomorrow. In which case I would smile and say, "Yes Sir."


Your company is allowing, encouraging, directing sloppy maintenance practices that endangers workers - I hope someone puts them out of business before the body count gets too high.

Again, the issue is not is the equipment is listed. The issue is if the company management is doing their job.

cf

Most production plants do not get reinspections after every repair.

Try modifying a UL listed product before you get your CO and see what happens.

 

[Jraef]

The only issues I see with regards to UL (NRTL) listing would be A) at initial installation when an AHJ will approve or disapprove it, and B) after a fire when an insurance adjuster would possibly be investigating the cause of the fire. So when applied to "old" stuff, meaning something already installed, only B will matter. Extending that out then, if there was a fire and an insurance adjuster investigates it down to a failed toggle switch, is he going to know, or care, that the toggle switch is not the exact same one used in the original fixture and therefore technically a violation of the original UL listing?

If you believe the answer is Yes, then how far do you extend that concept? What if the fixture was 50 years old, or 100 years old? Are we, as a consuming public (company or private) expected to ONLY replace components with EXACT parts from original manufacturers whom have most likely long ago disappeared? Extended out again then, does that mean we must trash ANY AND ALL pieces of equipment that have a single failed component that is not exactly the same as originally installed?

IMHO, a company should have established general rules about replacement parts that say, in effect, use something as good or better than what you took out, to the best of your ability. Then hire people with ability...

 

[iwire]

Any time you add or change to a switch that wasn't there for the UL testing, means the UL test no longer applies.

That's what I thought. What does this do to the liability factor when someone gets a shock or other injury that gets traced back to the improper part ?

That is really not what UL says.

Straight from UL to you.

Field Modifications

What happens to the Listing if a UL-Listed product is modified in the field?


An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer’s declaration that the product was originally manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When a UL-Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications ‘‘void’’ the UL Mark, nor that the product continues to meet UL’s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL’s Field Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this determination.

An exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement markings. For example, a switchboard may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The switchboard is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the marking on the product have been investigated for use in that product.

If a party wishes UL to determine if the modifications made to a UL Listed product comply with UL requirements, the appropriate Field Engineering Service can be initiated to investigate the modifications. This investigation will only be conducted after UL consults with the AHJ to ensure that UL’s investigation addresses all areas of concern and meets all of the AHJ’s needs.

If you have any questions or would like to inquire about a Field Evaluation, contact Field Services at +1-877-UL-HELPS, prompt #2 (+1-877-854-3577) or visit http://www.ul.com/field/index.html.