Would Voltage Be Present?

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DBoone

DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
Quick story:

Several months ago my uncle had to replace the cable from the panel to his electric range. I told him needed a 4 wire cable and 4 wire range cord. Well he got the 4 wire cable but didn't want to spend a few bucks to change the cord and receptacle. I tried to explain to him but e just doesn't understand. He said "the 3 has worked just fine, I don't understand the beauty of the 4." I finally have up and let him do his thing.

Now, I think he landed the EGC and neutral together on the receptacle and then landed each one one the neutral/ground bus.

My question: if either the neutral or EGC is compromised/severed, will you have full line voltage on the range side of the break? Or no because we still have an unbroken circuit (the other conductor)?
 
DBoone said:
....Now, I think he landed the EGC and neutral together on the receptacle and then landed each one one the neutral/ground bus.
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Each one respectively or each one on the same bus.
.... Or no because we still have an unbroken circuit (the other conductor)?
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This one, but there is a good chance of having some objectionable current in the house.
 
Each one under it's own lug. Same bar because the bars are connected.

Definitely has some objectionable current going on right now with the EGC and neutral in parallel but are you saying if there was a break in one of the two wires then there would/could be more issues?

I thought about of the neutral broke then nobody would know and the EGC could then become overloaded.

What else could develop from this.

Just curious. Always trying to learn.

Thanks Dave:thumbsup:
 
One reason that objectionable current is objectionable is that you can interrupt a wire that should not be carrying current and find yourself carrying it instead.

Tapatalk!
 
DBoone said:
Quick story:

Several months ago my uncle had to replace the cable from the panel to his electric range. I told him needed a 4 wire cable and 4 wire range cord. Well he got the 4 wire cable but didn't want to spend a few bucks to change the cord and receptacle. I tried to explain to him but e just doesn't understand. He said "the 3 has worked just fine, I don't understand the beauty of the 4." I finally have up and let him do his thing.

Now, I think he landed the EGC and neutral together on the receptacle and then landed each one on the neutral/ground bus.

My question: if either the neutral or EGC is compromised/severed, will you have full line voltage on the range side of the break? Or no because we still have an unbroken circuit (the other conductor)?
Click to expand...

I would say what was once parallel is no longer if one of the two was severed.
Was the bond strap in the stove still in place?
 
The more I think about it, I think I landed the wires in the panel for him and he did the rest. And I can't remember if he cut off the EGC at the receptacle (I hate when folks cut off the EGC) or landed it with the neutral.

Honestly, I tried hard to get him to go with a new 4 wire receptacle and cord so I don't even think I'm going to worry about it anymore. Nothing I can do about it now.

I did learn something with my original question.
 
DBoone said:
Each one under it's own lug. Same bar because the bars are connected.

Definitely has some objectionable current going on right now with the EGC and neutral in parallel but are you saying if there was a break in one of the two wires then there would/could be more issues?

I thought about of the neutral broke then nobody would know and the EGC could then become overloaded.

What else could develop from this.

Just curious. Always trying to learn.

Thanks Dave:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
With the neutral and ground in parallel losing one of them could go unnoticed forever, but we don't like current on conductive paths that are not meant to carry current because someone could get a shock if that path is ever broken.
 
ActionDave said:
With the neutral and ground in parallel losing one of them could go unnoticed forever, but we don't like current on conductive paths that are not meant to carry current because someone could get a shock if that path is ever broken.
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:thumbsup:
 
Simple question

Simple question

First question I have, is the panel the range is fed from the main panel or a subpanel? That is the heart of the matter, if its the main no harm, if its a sub he's rolling the dice.
 
Re: Gold Digger

Re: Gold Digger

GoldDigger said:
One reason that objectionable current is objectionable is that you can interrupt a wire that should not be carrying current and find yourself carrying it instead.

Tapatalk!
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This can happen when least expected.
One day I was working in a tight overhead crawlspace by flashlight dealing with a length of refrigeration piping that had to be cut and then recoupled and brazed. I noticed a shed snakes skin off to one side, that was also not helping matters....
AS soon as I got that pipe cut in half I got hit because apparently that pipe was the closest path for a ground fault.
I grabbed my meter and read 90 VAC potential, and it definitely felt like it.
I alligator clip my meter fast and go down and start filing through all circuit breakers.
This was a Walkin Cooler I was working on.
There was a fault on the cabinet lighting circuit that was taking a path back through the condensing unit lineset, and no part of the equation was tripping any breaker.
On another occaision I saw a similar fault start a fire in a very unusual manner.
They typically revolve around grounding and bonding connections that don't exist or are incorrect on multiple circuits in the same structure dating back.
Dangerous power running through both copper lines and metal ductwork is something that many HVACR veterans have dealt with at some point in their travels. The stories are never pleasant. The worst scenarios are when they involve circuits that are not part of the equipment being serviced.


SC
 
StarCat said:
This can happen when least expected.
One day I was working in a tight overhead crawlspace by flashlight dealing with a length of refrigeration piping that had to be cut and then recoupled and brazed. I noticed a shed snakes skin off to one side, that was also not helping matters....
AS soon as I got that pipe cut in half I got hit because apparently that pipe was the closest path for a ground fault.
I grabbed my meter and read 90 VAC potential, and it definitely felt like it.
I alligator clip my meter fast and go down and start filing through all circuit breakers.
This was a Walkin Cooler I was working on.
There was a fault on the cabinet lighting circuit that was taking a path back through the condensing unit lineset, and no part of the equation was tripping any breaker.
On another occaision I saw a similar fault start a fire in a very unusual manner.
They typically revolve around grounding and bonding connections that don't exist or are incorrect on multiple circuits in the same structure dating back.
Dangerous power running through both copper lines and metal ductwork is something that many HVACR veterans have dealt with at some point in their travels. The stories are never pleasant. The worst scenarios are when they involve circuits that are not part of the equipment being serviced.


SC
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Ground fault on an ungrounded conductor should have tripped the breaker, you likely had ground fault on the grounded conductor and the EGC, and other items bonded to it were the current path, you just were lucky enough to open that path. You must have not had a good EGC either otherwise this piping would not have been as critical of a path to keep that circuit in operation when you opened the path.
 
A ground fault inside a ballast or resistance heat winding can cause current on the EGC without necessarily tripping a breaker, but I agree that a combination of grounded conductor fault with open neutral is more likely not to cause any visible symptoms until the EGC path gets interrupted.

Tapatalk!
 
GoldDigger said:
A ground fault inside a ballast or resistance heat winding can cause current on the EGC without necessarily tripping a breaker, but I agree that a combination of grounded conductor fault with open neutral is more likely not to cause any visible symptoms until the EGC path gets interrupted.

Tapatalk!
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The ballast probably doesn't last long with an undesigned current path like that, the resistance heat with a ground fault somewhere in the middle of an element could go indefinitely - if anything performance issues may be noticed. Again there must not have been a good EGC or even any EGC at all, or the opening of this particular path would not have created such a high open circuit voltage.
 
Next time I am over there may ask him to let me look at the connections at the receptacle and then disconnect the EGC if it's indeed landed with the neutral.
 
DBoone said:
Next time I am over there may ask him to let me look at the connections at the receptacle and then disconnect the EGC if it's indeed landed with the neutral.
Click to expand...

If it is NM cable and I for some reason am not going to concern myself with the fact that new installs require the 4 wire receptacle --

The only other issues presented are the device lugs are probably only intended to land a single conductor, and you have parallel conductor installation violations - one they are smaller then 1/0 AWG, two the paralleled conductors are not the same size.
 
kwired said:
If it is NM cable and I for some reason am not going to concern myself with the fact that new installs require the 4 wire receptacle --

The only other issues presented are the device lugs are probably only intended to land a single conductor, and you have parallel conductor installation violations - one they are smaller then 1/0 AWG, two the paralleled conductors are not the same size.
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Yes I tried and tried to convince him to get a new receptacle and cord. Wouldn't budge. So now that that option is off the table the only good option left is treat it like a 3 wire setup.

I hate when I try to help someone and do the right thing and then get caught up in a mess.
 
Just looked at the setup and he cut off the EGC at the receptacle when he did the install so no parallel conductors, no current on the EGC.

Compliant? No

Safe? I guess as safe as the million of other 3 wire installs out there.
 
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