I want to install a motion sensor such as a MS116 module at the end of my drive way but its nearly 500ft away from the house. Does anyone know the range of X10 technology? I know they sell signal boosters, but I'd like to avoid using one if possible. The goal is to have a chime in the house to alert when someone enters driveway.
X10 Technology Maximum Distance?
- Thread starter S'mise
- Start date
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gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
161202-2047 EST
The TED power monitoring system uses similar frequencies and signal levels as X10.
If TED or X10 is connected to a similar distribution line, then the results should be similar.
For a long communication line you want minimum shunt loading on the distribution line, and minimum interfering signals.
With a TED transmitter and receiver on a 250 ft coil of #14 Romex I had zero transmission errors for a one hour test time with new data sent each second. Each data packet in the 1000 System is 10 bytes long at 1200 baud. Transmission of 8 bits requires 10 bit times.
The test consisted of an X10 filter at the power source end, the receiver, 250 ft of Romex, and the transmitter at the far end. The transmitter and receiver can be interchanged. Cable capacitance is probably the major load factor on the signal. You could run this same experiment and add a variable shunt capacitance to simulate and estimate how much additional cable could be added. You cannot work without the input filter.
Both X10 and TED put a large, about 125 kHz, carrier signal on the power line.
If you also use this same cable for lights and light control, then these need to be on the line in the simulation.
If you already have the power distribution system, then run the experiment with the existing system and add test capacitance to determine your signal margin.
.
The TED power monitoring system uses similar frequencies and signal levels as X10.
If TED or X10 is connected to a similar distribution line, then the results should be similar.
For a long communication line you want minimum shunt loading on the distribution line, and minimum interfering signals.
With a TED transmitter and receiver on a 250 ft coil of #14 Romex I had zero transmission errors for a one hour test time with new data sent each second. Each data packet in the 1000 System is 10 bytes long at 1200 baud. Transmission of 8 bits requires 10 bit times.
The test consisted of an X10 filter at the power source end, the receiver, 250 ft of Romex, and the transmitter at the far end. The transmitter and receiver can be interchanged. Cable capacitance is probably the major load factor on the signal. You could run this same experiment and add a variable shunt capacitance to simulate and estimate how much additional cable could be added. You cannot work without the input filter.
Both X10 and TED put a large, about 125 kHz, carrier signal on the power line.
If you also use this same cable for lights and light control, then these need to be on the line in the simulation.
If you already have the power distribution system, then run the experiment with the existing system and add test capacitance to determine your signal margin.
.
ELA
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Test Engineer
Insteon in same realm
Insteon in same realm
I have a lot of experience with Insteon which is a "step up" from X-10 tech. Runs at 131Khz but much more complex data packets than X-10's.
Gar,
Since you have a Scope I recommend you do some experimenting.
Measure the voltage of the 120 khz signal at the transmitter vs. that which arrives at the receiver end via 250ft of romex. Test with "across the line" capacitors from .1uf to .5uf located at the transmitter end, vs at 125 ft and then also at 250ft (( receiving end )).
I have done lots of such experiments on Insteon and have a lot of logged data which I do not retain in my head.
The issue is not so much the cables minimal capacitance but instead any plugin device's capacitance that home automation people refer to as "signal suckers". There are lots of electronic devices in the typical home that have across the line capacitors at their power supply inputs in order to suppress electrical noise. These capacitors "see" the Insteon/X-10 signal as "noise" and attenuate it.
As you mentioned there are also some electrical devices that emit conducted EMI that interferes with the X-10 signal. In my experience "signal suckers" are the more common issue.
For that reason, as you also mentioned, Filters are common place to help isolate signal suckers and offending noise from the intended communications lines.
Thus if you have a dedicated "clean" transmission line the signal can go quite far. If there are any signal suckers also on that line predictions become less reliable. What I recall as being worst is when you have multiple/distributed capacitance (signal suckers) along the length of the line.
I have heard people on home automation forums talk of going 300 ft with success on more dedicated lines.
Insteon in same realm
I have a lot of experience with Insteon which is a "step up" from X-10 tech. Runs at 131Khz but much more complex data packets than X-10's.
Gar,
Since you have a Scope I recommend you do some experimenting.
Measure the voltage of the 120 khz signal at the transmitter vs. that which arrives at the receiver end via 250ft of romex. Test with "across the line" capacitors from .1uf to .5uf located at the transmitter end, vs at 125 ft and then also at 250ft (( receiving end )).
I have done lots of such experiments on Insteon and have a lot of logged data which I do not retain in my head.
The issue is not so much the cables minimal capacitance but instead any plugin device's capacitance that home automation people refer to as "signal suckers". There are lots of electronic devices in the typical home that have across the line capacitors at their power supply inputs in order to suppress electrical noise. These capacitors "see" the Insteon/X-10 signal as "noise" and attenuate it.
As you mentioned there are also some electrical devices that emit conducted EMI that interferes with the X-10 signal. In my experience "signal suckers" are the more common issue.
For that reason, as you also mentioned, Filters are common place to help isolate signal suckers and offending noise from the intended communications lines.
Thus if you have a dedicated "clean" transmission line the signal can go quite far. If there are any signal suckers also on that line predictions become less reliable. What I recall as being worst is when you have multiple/distributed capacitance (signal suckers) along the length of the line.
I have heard people on home automation forums talk of going 300 ft with success on more dedicated lines.
ELA
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Test Engineer
Can you provide a link to the MS116?
Was your question regarding X-10 power line carrier or RF?
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
161202-2343 EST
ELA:
I did not mention in my post to S'mise that a filter might be useful at both ends if lights and other loads are at the far end.
The filter is basically a high impedance on the hot line at approximately 125 kHz. Thus, it reduces noise, like conflict between TED and X10, from passing thru, or it reduces shunt loading on the carrier transmitter.
I will see if I can do a simple test. It doesn't really require a scope, but to use a scope it is useful to employ a resonant filter tuned to the carrier frequency to remove line frequency and various harmonics and noise.
.
ELA:
I did not mention in my post to S'mise that a filter might be useful at both ends if lights and other loads are at the far end.
The filter is basically a high impedance on the hot line at approximately 125 kHz. Thus, it reduces noise, like conflict between TED and X10, from passing thru, or it reduces shunt loading on the carrier transmitter.
I will see if I can do a simple test. It doesn't really require a scope, but to use a scope it is useful to employ a resonant filter tuned to the carrier frequency to remove line frequency and various harmonics and noise.
.
Great points guys, but I guess I'm really asking; What's the best and most economical way of having an alert back at house using the existing branch circuit?
The X10 was just an option I was considering. I've heard of communication problems with it and a limited distance. Will it work over 500ft? I don't know. Insteon sounds like a good alternative, but I'm open to other ideas.
Whether or not there's occasional errors in the data stream doesn't sound critical to me, as all I need is one bit (on/off to turn on a chime at the house), as opposed to a bandwidth of data. If there is a lag of a few seconds, that's ok too.
The load at the end of branch is about 1 amp so it shouldn't be a problem.
I was hoping someone knew off hand the distance imitations of these type devices.
The X10 was just an option I was considering. I've heard of communication problems with it and a limited distance. Will it work over 500ft? I don't know. Insteon sounds like a good alternative, but I'm open to other ideas.
Whether or not there's occasional errors in the data stream doesn't sound critical to me, as all I need is one bit (on/off to turn on a chime at the house), as opposed to a bandwidth of data. If there is a lag of a few seconds, that's ok too.
The load at the end of branch is about 1 amp so it shouldn't be a problem.
I was hoping someone knew off hand the distance imitations of these type devices.
X10 Technology Maximum Distance?
These work well, obviously not as stable as a Powerline carrier signal but simple to use and has a Form C output on the base station-
RCTD20U - Optex Wireless 2000
Frankly the IR version are not as reliable as the magnetic probe type but that takes longer to install. The most reliable brand (imo) and is a professional grade product is-
http://www.mierproducts.com/DA-Home.html
Both brands have 2000' range. Personally I've used them up to 1000'.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
These work well, obviously not as stable as a Powerline carrier signal but simple to use and has a Form C output on the base station-
RCTD20U - Optex Wireless 2000
Frankly the IR version are not as reliable as the magnetic probe type but that takes longer to install. The most reliable brand (imo) and is a professional grade product is-
http://www.mierproducts.com/DA-Home.html
Both brands have 2000' range. Personally I've used them up to 1000'.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thank you very much. I will check it out.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
161203-2356 EST
S'mise:
Error rate of a mocerately high data rate signal, that is somilar to an X10 signal, being very low implies that in your application you should get good results. And it is an easy way to judge whether cable length is a problem.
A signal shunting impedance across the communication line lowers the available signal at the receiver. Below some threshold value communication will fail. If you remove all other shunts, then cable capacitance is your primary problem.
In a simple relative test with virtually zero shunt capacitance my signal peak with TED is about 50 V. This is at the output of a resonant filter to remove 60 Hz junk.
I can put a 1 ufd shunt capacitance across the line without transmission error in the TED system. This lowers the peak signal to about 200 mV.
You can do some of your own work and figure out what might be your cable's capacitance. Then you can get the X10 or Insteon components, and try your own experiments.
To judge your safety margin relative to failure you can add shunt capacitance as an experiment.
My experiment might imply 10,000 ft with TED.
.
S'mise:
Error rate of a mocerately high data rate signal, that is somilar to an X10 signal, being very low implies that in your application you should get good results. And it is an easy way to judge whether cable length is a problem.
A signal shunting impedance across the communication line lowers the available signal at the receiver. Below some threshold value communication will fail. If you remove all other shunts, then cable capacitance is your primary problem.
In a simple relative test with virtually zero shunt capacitance my signal peak with TED is about 50 V. This is at the output of a resonant filter to remove 60 Hz junk.
I can put a 1 ufd shunt capacitance across the line without transmission error in the TED system. This lowers the peak signal to about 200 mV.
You can do some of your own work and figure out what might be your cable's capacitance. Then you can get the X10 or Insteon components, and try your own experiments.
To judge your safety margin relative to failure you can add shunt capacitance as an experiment.
My experiment might imply 10,000 ft with TED.
.
Last edited:
ELA
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Test Engineer
Gar,
50 V peak down to 200mv. Miss print maybe?
Insteon signal in an ideal(isolated line) is 5- 6 volts pk to pk. They spec 3.2V pk-pk into a light load.
Don't oversimplify. Having spent hundreds of hours investigating Insteon signal issues I can tell you troubleshooting signal amplitude/quality issues can be simple in some cases and complex in others.
The trial and error method gets old really fast.
It does require an Oscope or X-10/Insteon signal analyzer if you want to be a serious investigator and not speculate. I developed a custom Insteon signal analyzer because there were none available on the market. That was to replace the need for an Oscope.
If a person is willing to make the minimal investment in two devices to test by trial and error that might be reasonable - if it were for your own property. If to be done for a customer you would be well served to have confirmed signal strengths to assure there is sufficient noise margin to have a reliable system.
To the OP question it is too hard to predict the maximum distance without knowing more about the circuit. Assuming an isolated line it should work to 500ft (in theory). Isolated line meaning a tuned filter at the receiving end ( between the receiver and the rest of the circuit back toward the breaker). It might also work without a filter if the circuit back at the house does not have any signal suckers on it.
50 V peak down to 200mv. Miss print maybe?
Insteon signal in an ideal(isolated line) is 5- 6 volts pk to pk. They spec 3.2V pk-pk into a light load.
Don't oversimplify. Having spent hundreds of hours investigating Insteon signal issues I can tell you troubleshooting signal amplitude/quality issues can be simple in some cases and complex in others.
The trial and error method gets old really fast.
It does require an Oscope or X-10/Insteon signal analyzer if you want to be a serious investigator and not speculate. I developed a custom Insteon signal analyzer because there were none available on the market. That was to replace the need for an Oscope.
If a person is willing to make the minimal investment in two devices to test by trial and error that might be reasonable - if it were for your own property. If to be done for a customer you would be well served to have confirmed signal strengths to assure there is sufficient noise margin to have a reliable system.
To the OP question it is too hard to predict the maximum distance without knowing more about the circuit. Assuming an isolated line it should work to 500ft (in theory). Isolated line meaning a tuned filter at the receiving end ( between the receiver and the rest of the circuit back toward the breaker). It might also work without a filter if the circuit back at the house does not have any signal suckers on it.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
161204-1451 EST
ELA:
Not a misprint.
To measure this signal I have a series resonant circuit consisting of two 1200 pfd mica capacitors in series (600 pfd equivalent) with a transformer primary coil having a calculated inductance of 2.6 millihenrys. This is 125 kHz. The transformer uses a powdered metal toroid core. Normally I use this transformer in a 10 kHz oscillator with a 0.1 ufd capacitor. The secondary has about 1/10 the turns of the primary. I used the secondary as the input to a 10 megohm scope probe. Thus, the secondary presents virtually no load on the primary. Because this is a series resonant circuit and I don't know or really care what all the parameters are. Thus, the actual input voltage superimposed on the AC line is unknown.
What I do know is that with my test circuit I get a 50 V peak signal with no capacitive loading across the AC line, and this drops to 0.2 V with a 1 ufd shunt, and that the TED system successfully transfers data over this whole range. How much lower before TED fails I don't know or probably care.
Apparently S'mise already has a circuit installed with possibly a 100 W bulb at the street. I don't know the capacitance of his cable, but if I assume 100 pfd per foot, then capacitance is about 0.05 ufd. 0.05 ufd is about 25 ohms at 125 kHz. The cable capacitance can be measured, and capacitance added to get some idea of the possible margin relative to failure.
.
ELA:
Not a misprint.
To measure this signal I have a series resonant circuit consisting of two 1200 pfd mica capacitors in series (600 pfd equivalent) with a transformer primary coil having a calculated inductance of 2.6 millihenrys. This is 125 kHz. The transformer uses a powdered metal toroid core. Normally I use this transformer in a 10 kHz oscillator with a 0.1 ufd capacitor. The secondary has about 1/10 the turns of the primary. I used the secondary as the input to a 10 megohm scope probe. Thus, the secondary presents virtually no load on the primary. Because this is a series resonant circuit and I don't know or really care what all the parameters are. Thus, the actual input voltage superimposed on the AC line is unknown.
What I do know is that with my test circuit I get a 50 V peak signal with no capacitive loading across the AC line, and this drops to 0.2 V with a 1 ufd shunt, and that the TED system successfully transfers data over this whole range. How much lower before TED fails I don't know or probably care.
Apparently S'mise already has a circuit installed with possibly a 100 W bulb at the street. I don't know the capacitance of his cable, but if I assume 100 pfd per foot, then capacitance is about 0.05 ufd. 0.05 ufd is about 25 ohms at 125 kHz. The cable capacitance can be measured, and capacitance added to get some idea of the possible margin relative to failure.
.
Last edited:
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