Went to trim out a new construction job today. Start seeing all kinds of orange expandable foam insulation hanging out from recessed housings, bath exhaust fans, and ceiling outlet boxes. Get to looking and find that the Co. that did the insulation felt it was necessary to spray foam around any opening that was in the attic. The product that they used actually distorted the cylinder Dia of the cans and the square openings of the fans. Some of the fans which should have a 8.5 inch square opening are actually as small as 8.25. Virtually impossible to install the motor asembly which usually fits tight just with the drywallers distortion.The kicker is that the same Co. shot 18" of cellulose in the attic as well. I would surely think that anything under 18" of cover would not need additional insulating with the foam product. Why do most people feel that more is always better!
You can't fix stupid!
- Thread starter nizak
- Start date
- Status
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
They never heard of the low pressure stuff??
If they used same thing around doors and windows they probably effected operation of them also.
If they used same thing around doors and windows they probably effected operation of them also.
Ok, I thought it was just me.
I really hate to stereotype, but I have yet to find a foam insulation contractor that cares one bit about the other trades on the job. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've gone to a house we've wired between the foam and sheetrock stage to see wires that we'd run straight now bent + pulled tight at turns because the foam guys hung from them like they were a ladder or knelt on them in the attic. I've had the same conversation with one guy twice now explaining to him that when he completely fills the area between the housing for a bath fan and the plywood on the roof, that the expansion of the foam pushes the housing out of the ceiling.
I really hate to stereotype, but I have yet to find a foam insulation contractor that cares one bit about the other trades on the job. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've gone to a house we've wired between the foam and sheetrock stage to see wires that we'd run straight now bent + pulled tight at turns because the foam guys hung from them like they were a ladder or knelt on them in the attic. I've had the same conversation with one guy twice now explaining to him that when he completely fills the area between the housing for a bath fan and the plywood on the roof, that the expansion of the foam pushes the housing out of the ceiling.
stevebea
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeastern PA
Maybe they just wanted to give the GC a " good job " and go the extra mile! :lol: Unfortunate for you though. :happysad:
Buck Parrish
Senior Member
- Location
- NC & IN
Not to hijack the thread but... The supply house had some boxes that had a gray foam insulation built in around the edges of them. They told me I will have to start useing them on all outside walls of homes. They didn't say when, just that "there coming" Any body else heard this?
John120/240
Senior Member
- Location
- Olathe, Kansas
A professional insulation contractor should hire qualified employees, & have some sort of training
program. The insulation boss should explain to his employees the conquences of their actions.
In the abscence of such, it's time to back charge the General Contractor.
program. The insulation boss should explain to his employees the conquences of their actions.
In the abscence of such, it's time to back charge the General Contractor.
I love these energy code rules. If we end up having to use boxes like you're talking, it's gonna be a lot of fun to explain to home owners why the cost of wiring a house keeps increasing. If heat leaking around the edge of electrical boxes is such a problem, how much energy do you think is wasted heating outdoor pools? #justsayin
Around here, Topeka, started 2 days ago with the new energy bill. but its not that we have to use those kind of boxes on out side walls and ceilings, the boxes just need to be air tight, still not sure how that will be done, high expansion foam, so we may end up with the same issues as OP
Buck Parrish
Senior Member
- Location
- NC & IN
PHP:
Yes these are like a resi plastic box. But they have what is shaped kind of like a plaster ring except it is fastened to the plastic box.
It has like a weather stripping on the face of the plaster ring and it is not as wide as a normal plaster ring. The weather stripping is between the sheet rock and the back side of the plaster ring.
So what looks like a plasrter ring is molded on to the box. And is perpendicular to the box. Hope you can picture that.
cpinetree
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
Pass and Seymour patent
Pass and Seymour patent
Here is a link to Pass and Seymours patent on an air tight electrical box:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6908003
and a link to T&B's version:
http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=FN23
Pass and Seymour patent
Here is a link to Pass and Seymours patent on an air tight electrical box:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6908003
and a link to T&B's version:
http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?part=FN23
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I have seen some boxes with rubber like flange. Have not seen any with the foam flange. How well does it stand up to rotary cutout tools used by drywallers? Who notices it if it does not stand up? Unless they perform some kind of pressure testing on the whole house.
Nutty......................makes sense but Nutty.
I'm a stickler (anal) about having drywall sitting flat against a beam/joist/stud, as in not having the bump out you may get from a nail/kick plate.
So I don't like these vapor/air rings. Think they care? Not.
I'm a stickler (anal) about having drywall sitting flat against a beam/joist/stud, as in not having the bump out you may get from a nail/kick plate.
So I don't like these vapor/air rings. Think they care? Not.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Nutty......................makes sense but Nutty.
I'm a stickler (anal) about having drywall sitting flat against a beam/joist/stud, as in not having the bump out you may get from a nail/kick plate.
So I don't like these vapor/air rings. Think they care? Not.
If the thickness of a nail plate bothers you how picky are you with how straight the studs are? It is hard to find ones that don't bow more than thickness of a nail plate.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
My daughter does the green building stuff in the KC area. Teaches & inspects.
They do blower door tests at final along with all the other inspections throughout construction. GC hires her company to inspect and test but then doesn't like the answers if something isn't right.
They do blower door tests at final along with all the other inspections throughout construction. GC hires her company to inspect and test but then doesn't like the answers if something isn't right.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
He needs to write a bigger check
(joking)
Not to far off...the customer wants the certification, doesn't really want to know why they won't get it unless things are changed, then does not want to pay the price. Low bid shopping is already hitting what is a relatively new field.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
We all have our issues with inspections - and the insulation guys are no exception.
Call it another example of seminar training .... inspectors are all focused on the holes we run our wires through and the recesed lights. "Energy codes." Can't have that air leakage!
Step out, visit a few non-electrical forums. Home inspectors', for one. Or, sites like the 'green building advisor.' Yup- look for LEED to make things worse.
Just try telling these folks that we've been down this road before (remember the Carter years?), and the result was the 'mold crisis.' You can't tell these fools that homes need to breathe.
Indeed, visit an HVAC forum, and you'll see some lovely problems arise when homes are too tight; like, say, the bath fan tripping the CO detector, because the furance is now back-drafting. Or the kitchen fan not moving much air, because there's no fresh air coming in.
Call it another example of seminar training .... inspectors are all focused on the holes we run our wires through and the recesed lights. "Energy codes." Can't have that air leakage!
Step out, visit a few non-electrical forums. Home inspectors', for one. Or, sites like the 'green building advisor.' Yup- look for LEED to make things worse.
Just try telling these folks that we've been down this road before (remember the Carter years?), and the result was the 'mold crisis.' You can't tell these fools that homes need to breathe.
Indeed, visit an HVAC forum, and you'll see some lovely problems arise when homes are too tight; like, say, the bath fan tripping the CO detector, because the furance is now back-drafting. Or the kitchen fan not moving much air, because there's no fresh air coming in.
stevenje
Senior Member
- Location
- Yachats Oregon
Back in the mid/late 70's we were required to put foam insulating gaskets between the wall and the cover plates, along with the two prong plastic plug-in's to stop any air flow. It was cheap and effective.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I have did the foam gasket thing, but it seems the plastic plug-ins would be for child safety, not air flow. IDK.
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