Your Opinions- how much training to be qualified for 480v?

[Sparketta]

The NEC definition of qualified person seems to be open to much interpretation, especially by employers who seek to gain flexibility by a more liberal interpretation. I am looking for a consensus or some thoughts on how much training/apprenticeship or how long it should take on average for a person to gain the experience to be considered qualified to work on 480 volt systems.

Please share your opinions on this, it will really help me out.

Thanks!

 

[zog]

Define the average person, what are we starting from.

You dont get qualified on a voltage, it is on the equipment, so what equipment.

Read the thread on qualified person in the safety FAQ's

 

[Sparketta]

Define the average person, what are we starting from.

You dont get qualified on a voltage, it is on the equipment, so what equipment.

Read the thread on qualified person in the safety FAQ's

I did read the thread. I mean for the average person, starting almost from scratch, with only a small amount of electrical theory knowledge.

The equipment could be a toxic vapor scrubber, a jib hoist, a bridge crane, hydraulic pumper unit, etc. The person would be expected to work on any of these items to perform maintenance, troubleshooting, or repairs.

 

[zog]

That would take years, yes years. You cant expect such a person with little or no electrical training to meet the qualification requirements for all of that equipment.

I dont see what is so open to interpretation, it is spelled out very clearly in the FAQ's.

 

[LarryFine]

To me, there's no difference between being qualified for 480v and 240v. You need to know how to properly connect any equipment at any voltages. If you're not working it hot, what's the difference?

(I know the difference between 480 and 240! )

 

[LLSolutions]

As Larry said, if the circuit is dead its all the same, and if you're working live you should take the same precautions with any harmful voltage, 24 volts is harmful if it hits you across the right spot. I think it has allot more to do with the equipment than the voltage. Changing 480 volt receptacles or working in live 480 switch gear there's a big difference. Cowboys are the first to perish in this trade.

 

[Sparketta]

To me, there's no difference between being qualified for 480v and 240v. You need to know how to properly connect any equipment at any voltages. If you're not working it hot, what's the difference?

Here's the deal- these items are shut down and locked out before work is performed on them, but the problem is that the act of verifying de-energization with a meter after they are locked out is treated as working on energized equipment up until the point that determination has been made, as OSHA clarifies in the interpretation letter here.

Verifying deenergization is hazardous for these unqualified employees, because the facilities are often modified, breaker panels rewired, etc. with no communication that this has occurred, and therefore the LOTO procedures do not get updated.

We have had two recent instances where the wrong breaker was locked out and the equipment hot when the person went out bare handed and in street clothes to verify with a meter. It is my opinion that the unqualified person should not be sent out to take this verification meter reading as they have been.

Since the issue has been brought to light, some people within the company have been trying to interpret the definition of "qualified" to mean that we could simply send the unqualified persons through a training class for a few hours or watch some qualified persons do it a couple of times and that they would then be able to put on some PPE and perform this verification safely. I do not think that this approach is safe, as they may be trained how to do the job safely when everything works as advertised, but would not necessarily recognize when there was a problem.

There are low voltage qualified persons in the company, but they will not work on this equipment due to contract issues- the responsibility for the equipment does not fall under their union contract. It is "owned" by a non-represented portion of the company.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

[zog]

Ahhh, unions, dont miss them at all. Not sure what you mean by low voltage electricians, 480V IS low voltage.

Why isnt this the problem of the "owner" , and if the owner of this equipment is non union, hire some qualified guys.

You are right on with your thinking, some weak safety training and watching a few videos dosent meet the requipements, that migh be OK if everything goes right, but when it dosent, they only know enough to be dangerous.

 

[Sparketta]

Ahhh, unions, dont miss them at all. Not sure what you mean by low voltage electricians, 480V IS low voltage.

Why isnt this the problem of the "owner" , and if the owner of this equipment is non union, hire some qualified guys.

You are right on with your thinking, some weak safety training and watching a few videos dosent meet the requipements, that migh be OK if everything goes right, but when it dosent, they only know enough to be dangerous.

When I said there are low voltage electricians, I meant that they were qualified for the 480v. I understand that low voltage goes up to 600v, but for other reasons this equipment does not fall under their contract.


It is the problem of the owner. When I said "owner," I meant the responsible department, which is in the same company as the low voltage shop. It doesn't pay for that department to hire qualified persons, because the equipment is only worked on once or twice a year.

 

[zog]

When I said there are low voltage electricians, I meant that they were qualified for the 480v. I understand that low voltage goes up to 600v, but for other reasons this equipment does not fall under their contract.


It is the problem of the owner. When I said "owner," I meant the responsible department, which is in the same company as the low voltage shop. It doesn't pay for that department to hire qualified persons, because the equipment is only worked on once or twice a year.

By hire i meant subcontract

 

[quogueelectric]

Most apprenticeships that I know of are 5 yrs and they are not allowed to work hot until they graduate ppe or no ppe. My answer is 5 yrs final answer.

 

[Sparketta]

By hire i meant subcontract

Then we are in agreement; the unqualified persons should not be doing the work. I do not have any control over how the contracts are handled, and they are government and very complicated. But there are solutions such as you mentioned. That part is way beyond my control.

All I am looking for is justification to show management that no, unqualified individuals should not be forced to do this work, and that the amount of training required to get them qualified makes that an infeasible option. Their idea was that they could take electrical technicians, those that work on 12-28v equipment, and send them to a couple of classes and that would be all it would take. I think that approach would be asking for trouble. Thanks for all of your responses; sometimes it is hard to be completely clear about the situation, especially when it is one you are close to.

Most apprenticeships that I know of are 5 yrs and they are not allowed to work hot until they graduate ppe or no ppe. My answer is 5 yrs final answer.

Thank you; that is more along the lines of the kind of answer I was looking for.

 

[iaov]

Most apprenticeships that I know of are 5 yrs and they are not allowed to work hot until they graduate ppe or no ppe. My answer is 5 yrs final answer.

My industrial apprenticeship was 6 years and we were not allowed to work on 480 alone untill we had a journeymans card.

 

[zog]

Then we are in agreement; the unqualified persons should not be doing the work. I do not have any control over how the contracts are handled, and they are government and very complicated. But there are solutions such as you mentioned. That part is way beyond my control.

All I am looking for is justification to show management that no, unqualified individuals should not be forced to do this work, and that the amount of training required to get them qualified makes that an infeasible option. Their idea was that they could take electrical technicians, those that work on 12-28v equipment, and send them to a couple of classes and that would be all it would take. I think that approach would be asking for trouble. Thanks for all of your responses; sometimes it is hard to be completely clear about the situation, especially when it is one you are close to.

Absoutly, we have been in agreement all along, problem the employer is the one who deems a person qualified or not, if they want to do it that way, there is nothing stopping them, but if (And probally when) someone gets hurt, they will have to justify thier qualification process to OSHA.

So your job (What I think you are trying to do) is to sway thier opionion of what it takes to qualify them. I suggest seaching www.osha.gov for acccident reports with keywords "electrical" and "unqualified"

 

[haskindm]

This loosely defined "Qualified Person" is an example of unenforceable code being inserted for the legal profession. Everything is fine until something goes wrong, then all the lawyer has to do is convince the judge/jury that the person doing the work was not "qualified" and the owner or contractor (whoever employed the "unqualified person"and did not provide them with adequate training, whatever that means) becomes liable. It is strictly a means to establish liability after an accident.

 

[petersonra]

I think you have to accept the idea that there are levels of qualification. I would feel pretty comfortable working on run of the mill lower current 480V equipment like starters, but would not feel good at all about working on a 2500A switchboard.

I don't think any amount of work experience, or a union card, qualifies you to work on something you are not qualified to work on. One could easily spend five or even ten years working in the trade and never work on some kinds of equipment, and not have any real clue what to do.

I wish there was a better answer, but really there just isn't.

 

[hillbilly1]

120 will kill you just as quick as 480, I think it is more about how much damage you will create by a mistake, as usually the available fault current is usually higher with 480.

 

[zog]

I think you have to accept the idea that there are levels of qualification. I would feel pretty comfortable working on run of the mill lower current 480V equipment like starters, but would not feel good at all about working on a 2500A switchboard.

I don't think any amount of work experience, or a union card, qualifies you to work on something you are not qualified to work on. One could easily spend five or even ten years working in the trade and never work on some kinds of equipment, and not have any real clue what to do.

I wish there was a better answer, but really there just isn't.

That why there are specialists, too much to know.