Your PPE--some things you've changed

[amp-here]

Understanding that a flash analysis must be wrought before a definitive response can be rendered regarding the exact type PPE one wears, what are you commercial electricians wearing to protect yourself? What type/ brands / model coats, coveralls? Say for instance-- and once again, I understand the proximity to transformer, service, size of transformer, etc; must be considered.....but what if you need to test a breaker --how are you removing panel covers on 400a panels and testing current and voltage readings now? With what baseline PPE coverage do you consider worthy of entry -PPE?

I'm a licensed electrician and just starting my business. Been out of the field for awhile and just trying to gather some insight into makes of clothing, brands and types, which may be recommended by those in the field. Although Im from the old school where I used to place my left hand in my pocket while working in 480 volt panels with a clean-shanked screwdriver in the right..dumb I know. We all were so ill-informed, sad its taken so many burns for someone to say, "Hey!" Anyway, I'm sure there are enough of those stories to go around by member's of this forum for all.

At anyrate, all of the literature from the NFPA and the sites which sale protective clothing, seemingly make deriving at a choice a daunting task. I'm all for safety and certainly don't mind protecting myself by wearing said gear, just trying to reach a decision on the type which might be a good fit for me and what it is that I will be exposed to.

Working in commercial and industrial environs, leaves me with no other choice but to remove panel covers and check voltages/ measure currents, etc; Let me clarify, I don't plan on working in larger industrial environments, I'm just a one man show for now. There will be opportunity to work in small scale industrial environments for there are a lot of woodworking and machine shops in the region.

As long as I've been doing electrical work 480 has always had my respect. That being said, with all the literature surrounding arc flashes and the depth of studies which have arisen over the past ten years, its left me with a greater concern than I've ever had. Concerns like--what is the probability of arc flashes occurring between meter probes in/and around panel boxes when taking voltage readings....proximities of meter lead probes, even if using the minimal exposure tips (4mm) inside 480 cans? A special concern is- if one is checking phase to phase. I know how I've always done it-on the main lugs as many of my predecessors did and some still do, I presume. But, certainly doesn't mean that's the better approach.

What are your thoughts? Means and methods when working by yourself and such?

 

[wbdvt]

I think the first thing you need to do is buy and thoroughly read NFPA 70E-2015. This will help you develop an electrical safety program which would identify the tasks and PPE needed. While the tables for PPE will identify the PPE by task they are not as good as having a study done by the facility and reading a label for the PPE. Of course if there is a task you are doing that is not in the tables, then NFPA 70E says a study is needed. The other item that can get you on the tables is being outside the set parameters for bolted fault current and associated clearing time.

 

[Fulthrotl]

What are your thoughts? Means and methods when working by yourself and such?

i normally use a lucky rabbit's foot. i have it fireproofed first,
then dip it in a container of common sense i keep handy for
the purpose, before use.

i use a salsbury 40 cal suit. i had to pick something to
work in any situation, as i didn't want to bother with the
different levels. 40 cal is good for anything, as if you need
more than 40 cal, the pressure wave will probably kill you,
which obviates the need for a 100 cal suit.

for blankets, i use a disposable 1000 volt liner, that comes
in rolls. reuse it until it gets snarky, and dispose. can be cut
and fitted as needed.

i have salsbury 1kv gloves for fiddling inside panels, where i
need dexterity. i have 17kv salsbury gloves for when i need
the 40cal protection for survivability.
.
my place i get most everything like this, is here, as they are
local to me... you can get this stuff on amazon however,
but a 40 cal suit here is about $1,100. amazon is a bunch more.

http://www.burlingtonsafety.com/

if zog posts on this, he would be an excellent guy to listen to.

 

[Besoeker]

Safety boots instead of safety shoes.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Concerns like--what is the probability of arc flashes occurring between meter probes in/and around panel boxes when taking voltage readings....proximities of meter lead probes, even if using the minimal exposure tips (4mm) inside 480 cans?

.
it's not the probe slipping that causes concern for me,
as much as the stuff that nobody can plan for... i was
pulling a new circuit into a 400 amp 480 volt panel,
wall mounted, about a 5' high enclosure, extending
almost to the floor . mounted on a factory wall,
next to a similar enclosure. been there 30+ years.

piping, we removed the cover, carefully punched a 1 1/2"
hole for the conduit, put a chase nipple thru the hole
into a C condulet, closed up the panel, and piped it
several hundred feet.

pulled the wire, feeding into the condulet, and cut it
and coiled it up above the panel. put on arc suit, and
pulled off cover and deadfront. open bus.

i was standing about 4' away, and watching, and a piece
of 1" pipe about 3' long that someone had stood IN BETWEEN
the two panels god knows when, began rolling forward gently,
exited the space, and came to a stop, standing balanced on it's
end, about a foot in front of the can with the open bus bars.

just standing there. i reached over, and grabbed it, and laid it
down, then just went over and sat down for a while.

yeah, i wear PPE, even when nothing could happen.

 

[JFletcher]

.
it's not the probe slipping that causes concern for me,
as much as the stuff that nobody can plan for... i was
pulling a new circuit into a 400 amp 480 volt panel,
wall mounted, about a 5' high enclosure, extending
almost to the floor . mounted on a factory wall,
next to a similar enclosure. been there 30+ years.

piping, we removed the cover, carefully punched a 1 1/2"
hole for the conduit, put a chase nipple thru the hole
into a C condulet, closed up the panel, and piped it
several hundred feet.

pulled the wire, feeding into the condulet, and cut it
and coiled it up above the panel. put on arc suit, and
pulled off cover and deadfront. open bus.

i was standing about 4' away, and watching, and a piece
of 1" pipe about 3' long that someone had stood IN BETWEEN
the two panels god knows when, began rolling forward gently,
exited the space, and came to a stop, standing balanced on it's
end, about a foot in front of the can with the open bus bars.

just standing there. i reached over, and grabbed it, and laid it
down, then just went over and sat down for a while.

yeah, i wear PPE, even when nothing could happen.

that's the problem; even if you commit no errors, you could still be a crispy critter or skin graft specialist. I would have sat down for a few if that happened to me.

I've seen electricians screw up in 480V cabs 3x. First time, the man's ZZ Top like beard was gone. 22 years w/o incident, until that one. Second, blown screwdriver and the fault didnt trip that breaker, rather the building's 2000A main (which caused other problems). Third, a wire brush across bussbars (that should have been de-energized) of a 150HP pump damn near killed that electrician, and the resulting arc kept him out of work for two months.

It's when nothing can happen that something happens. I dont fear 480V, I respect it. Always.

 

[amp-here]

Sorry gents. Been a few days. I'm not receiving notifications in my email of the new post responses. I have that same notification issue with another forum. It has to be AOL related. Not certain what's going on there. I'll have to make sure I drop in from time to time to check for responses.

Fulthrotl--Wowsers Man! Thanks for sharing. :jawdrop:I got sweaty palms just reading your story. Keep sharing it, may save someone's life. Thanks man.


--I am looking into appropriate arc rated wear for purchase. I need to get me a paper copy of the NFPA 70. Dang!! One would think, as important as the topic is someone would make the dang copies more affordable. Ouch! that hurts at $155

Although I know there is no definitive way outside of a bona fide arc flash analysis to know what calories/cm^2 one may be looking at, I'm trying to find appropriate clothing and gain an understanding of the better makes/ fabric / brand/ model suit/ etc; available. I will use the tables for the guideline because real world is, most panels outside of a controlled environment are not labeled. What are you all wearing in non-labeled locations in most commercial environments when dealing with Cat 3 panels, say 400 A and below? What are a few of the suggested makers, types of suit material that one would deem worthy? I'm certain there is quite a bit of attire available which simply isn't adequate.

Considering there have been so many incidences having stemmed from improper meter usage(s) around the 480v equipment, it seems like there would be more in-depth response mentioned in the incident reviews covering critical details. Meter failure was the culprit in many, yet in other cases they seem to have stemmed from an arc jump between meter tips. I've done a lot of work in 480v panels, disconnects and equipment most of which I've always been fortunate enough that killing the power was feasible. But of course, the more one reads and understands, the more questions sometimes arise.

So it is, I'm wondering about safe distances between meter test lead probes in those Cat 3 and 4 environs because of the propensity of arcs in that voltage class. For instance, consider load side breaker terminals of a three phase breaker. The screw terminals are buried down in that breaker casing you know, thereby preventing any phase to phase arc. However, an approach of a meter lead during an unknown transient, based upon literature reviews I've read, seemingly point to a high probability there could be incident perhaps between meter leads themselves. And that correlates with Fluke's newer test leads on the market now days which posses the deeper shrouded probe tips. What are your concerns here?

 

[Ponchik]

...


--I am looking into appropriate arc rated wear for purchase. I need to get me a paper copy of the NFPA 70. Dang!! One would think, as important as the topic is someone would make the dang copies more affordable. Ouch! that hurts at $155

The pain of being burned and the pain that your family goes through and the pain of being charged and fined for copy write is a lot more expensive than $155. :happyyes::happyyes:

 

[Ponchik]

In my 2nd semester of electrical program I was burned pretty bad.

Stay safe and wear your properly "designed for application" PPE.

 

[amp-here]

The pain of being burned and the pain that your family goes through and the pain of being charged and fined for copy write is a lot more expensive than $155. :happyyes::happyyes:

Well no kidding.

 

[amp-here]

Edward- I'm sorry to hear. I wish you would have read my post in completeness before responding. I'm planning on wearing protective gear, why else would I be asking about types of material, some of the better makes on the market, etc;? And trying to gain some experiential clarity on the incidences involving probe to probe arcing. Don't count me presumptuous but I just landed here on the forum and entered with knocking (signed up and posted the question).

and may I ask what is 'copy write'?

 

[wtucker]

--I am looking into appropriate arc rated wear for purchase. I need to get me a paper copy of the NFPA 70. Dang!! One would think, as important as the topic is someone would make the dang copies more affordable. Ouch! that hurts at $155

NFPA 70 is the National Electrical Code. You need NFPA 70E, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace--that's the one that covers PPE. $71.50. And you can read it online for free.

 

[dionysius]

NFPA 70 is the National Electrical Code. You need NFPA 70E, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace--that's the one that covers PPE. $71.50. And you can read it online for free.

Any suggestions for good NFPA 70E rated meter for testing that voltage is removed from 480 panels........manf, model, and cost if possible.

 

[kentirwin]

Meters

Meters

Any suggestions for good NFPA 70E rated meter for testing that voltage is removed from 480 panels........manf, model, and cost if possible.

Cat III minimum. Many manufacturers make them and there are many models but it's hard to go wrong with a Fluke.

 

[Besoeker]

Something I learned just a few years ago. Hard hats have an expiry date. They have a much shorter life than I could have ever imagined.
I can't remember the mechanism but I think it was to do with the material degrading in sunlight or something like that.

 

[dionysius]

Cat III minimum. Many manufacturers make them and there are many models but it's hard to go wrong with a Fluke.

I agree. The leads and probes are as, if not more, important than the meter itself from the standpoint of arc flash. Anybody agree/disagree with that????? In fact should not the leads/probes have an expiry date????

 

[peter d]

Something I learned just a few years ago. Hard hats have an expiry date. They have a much shorter life than I could have ever imagined.
I can't remember the mechanism but I think it was to do with the material degrading in sunlight or something like that.

That's true, and even just general environmental conditions can hasten the degradation of plastic.

 

[wbdvt]

Something I learned just a few years ago. Hard hats have an expiry date. They have a much shorter life than I could have ever imagined.
I can't remember the mechanism but I think it was to do with the material degrading in sunlight or something like that.

Hardhats are stamped with a manufacture date but not an expiration date. Except for hardhat manufacturers pushing a 5 yr expiration there is no requirement to periodically replace. They should be stored not in direct sunlight, be painted or covered with stickers as you are supposed to flex them and examine for cracks. You also need to examine the suspension for degradation.

What is far worst is wearing a hardhat improperly such as with the brim to the back. This not how they are tested.

 

[JFletcher]

Edward- I'm sorry to hear. I wish you would have read my post in completeness before responding. I'm planning on wearing protective gear, why else would I be asking about types of material, some of the better makes on the market, etc;? And trying to gain some experiential clarity on the incidences involving probe to probe arcing. Don't count me presumptuous but I just landed here on the forum and entered with knocking (signed up and posted the question).

and may I ask what is 'copy write'?

Since no one answered this: copyright is ownership of intellectual property, which includes writing. The poster was alluding to copyright infringement, which is copying a work without permission. Yes, the fines can run into huge numbers, and the chances of you getting fined for copying the NEC or an NFPA book are about as good as winning the Powerball lottery. If you printed and sold 20,000 bootleg copies, sure, but one book, or one section? :happyno:

Securing power is almost always required. PPE is not an excuse to work live (not saying you do, but it is done).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P35HRYHFz7c

taking a 50,000*F plasma shower is not on my "to do" list. as fulthrotl mentioned before, above 40cal the pressure front would probably kill you anyway.

Most probes are rated to 600V. Fluke and others make ones rated to 1000V. Above that, you'd have to check. There is a vid on youtube of a worker who was killed using a meter rated 600V on 2300V (4160V). As soon as he touched probes line to line, an arc blast ensued via the meter and burned the man to death.

 

[jim dungar]

...above 40cal the pressure front would probably kill you anyway.

The blast has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of incident energy. You can be injured by an arc blast without being burned by it. Do not assume a low incident energy fault is 'tolerable' because you have AF PPE.
Many high incident energies are due to relatively long clearing times caused by relatively low fault currents through the protective device (like on a transformer secondary, where the protection is on the primary side). The long lasting low fault current arcs can easily melt steel but they are not really explosive (similar to an arc welder).