ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
Thoughts on this panel?
Zinsco
- Thread starter ESolar
- Start date
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Here is a report from an insurance group as to why they are a fire risk:
www.greatamericaninsurancegroup.com
Is Your Electric Panel a Fire Risk?
Take a look at your electrical panel. If any of the labels in it say “Zinsco,” you may have a fire risk. These older electrical panels would not pass today’s UL (Underwriters Laboratories) listing and would not be sold to the general public.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If it were mine I would replace it but it is hard to convince someone to do that. Looks like there are other violations in there as well so you can use that as a selling point.
I know Zinsco is like FPE in the sense of being possibly dangerous...
I know Zinsco is like FPE in the sense of being possibly dangerous...
ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
What other violations do you think you see? And keep in mind that NEC doesn't explicitly mention animals occupying the panel box.
Also, many of these old circuits are ungrounded. Are they still grandfathered in if the panel is replaced? Or does replacing the panel necessitate upgrading the circuits. They are planning a remodel at which time they will upgrade circuits. But I am suggesting that in the mean time they replace that panel due to safety concerns.
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ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
Also note that it is a coastal area with visible corrosion.What other violations do you think you see? And keep in mind that NEC doesn't explicitly mention animals occupying the panel box.
Also, many of these old circuits are ungrounded. Are they still grandfathered in if the panel is replaced? Or does replacing the panel necessitate upgrading the circuits. They are planning a remodel at which time they will upgrade circuits. But I am suggesting that in the mean time they replace that panel due to safety concerns.
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Yes, upgrade it so AFCI breakers become possible, perhaps required if HO replaced receptacles missing AFCI.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
I use the line "50 years old" to try and communicate to the customers. Because most of these are 50 give or take a bit. That is a good long life and it is time to change it.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I wouldn't touch that except to replace it. Made a couple exceptions here and there when dealing with Zisco, but this wouldn't have been one of them.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
What other violations do you think you see? And keep in mind that NEC doesn't explicitly mention animals occupying the panel box.
Also, many of these old circuits are ungrounded. Are they still grandfathered in if the panel is replaced? Or does replacing the panel necessitate upgrading the circuits. They are planning a remodel at which time they will upgrade circuits. But I am suggesting that in the mean time they replace that panel due to safety concerns.
Looks like the cable on the bottom right does not have a connector????? Also I don't see a ground bar so I am assuming the neutrals and equipment grounding conductor's are connected together
ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
It's the main, and without a main breaker - it's 70 years old. I should have mentioned that from the beginning.
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ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
And there are mostly no EGCs, just 2 conductor wiring.
Then its in violation of the 6 handle rule.
I would strongly recommend that they rep!ace it. Can remember helping my electrician dad back in the 1960's replace two of these panels that failed.Was in a less then five year old huge track of row homes who had natural gas and no central AC so very lightly loaded. Did work several times in the past around there and a few of the homes still have these in my opinion unreliable panels.
With Zinsco/Sylvania, it's always a good idea to change them out, but I say the same about "Zinsco II" (Eaton BR), they both catered to the same markets.
ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
What do you mean by Zinsco II (Eaton BR)? Eaton still makes BR panels. Eaton BR and Zinsco never were directly related. See this:
Is this allowed or a defect?
Its getting a little off topic, but I respectfully disagree with the characterization of BR style panels as Zinsco heritage. Although there is some overlap in ownership, the panel and breaker designs were unrelated. Its complicated, but here’s a basic timeline: 1950-1972 Zinsco designs...
forum.nachi.org
1973 Zinsco sells company to GTE Sylvania who continues selling product
1978 Panel line rebranded as “Challenger”, design remains the same
1982 GTE divests Zinsco to a new company created with Challenger Electric. The new company immediately stops making all Zinsco panels and redesigns all new panels and breakers with compatibility to Bryant and Crouse Hinds interiors. Replacement Zinsco breakers are continued to be made separaely for aftermarket purpose.
1988 Westinghouse acquires Challenger Electric, Bryant and Challenger brands merged and redesigned as BR, production moved from Bridgeport. CT to Jackson, MS.
1994 Westinghouse acquired by Eaton/Cutler Hammer, Zinsco breaker business unit sold to T&B. Eaton separated BR and CH plug in panel lines and moved both to production to Lincoln, IL.
So the only thing Zinsco and BR panels ever shared was the Challenger name briefly, but there was never a common design between them. I know that won’t change your mind if you already dislike BR panels, everyone has their own opinions, I just wanted to point out that they are not the same as Zinsco.
I tend to look at all the 1" wide breakers as about the same quality (Siemens, BR, SquareD Homeline, GE) and all the 3/4" wide breakers as a bit more premium (CH, SquareD QO.)"
ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
The clips on all panels should have a better design IMO. Also, the width of some of these panels, for example those with the meter included, require tight bends and leave little room for large wires - and the extra long Eaton BR MWBC AFCI breaker really creates problems.What do you mean by Zinsco II (Eaton BR)? Eaton still makes BR panels. Eaton BR and Zinsco never were directly related. See this:
"1950-1972 Zinsco designs, sells, and evolves its plug-in panel and breaker line.Is this allowed or a defect?
Its getting a little off topic, but I respectfully disagree with the characterization of BR style panels as Zinsco heritage. Although there is some overlap in ownership, the panel and breaker designs were unrelated. Its complicated, but here’s a basic timeline: 1950-1972 Zinsco designs...
1973 Zinsco sells company to GTE Sylvania who continues selling product
1978 Panel line rebranded as “Challenger”, design remains the same
1982 GTE divests Zinsco to a new company created with Challenger Electric. The new company immediately stops making all Zinsco panels and redesigns all new panels and breakers with compatibility to Bryant and Crouse Hinds interiors. Replacement Zinsco breakers are continued to be made separaely for aftermarket purpose.
1988 Westinghouse acquires Challenger Electric, Bryant and Challenger brands merged and redesigned as BR, production moved from Bridgeport. CT to Jackson, MS.
1994 Westinghouse acquired by Eaton/Cutler Hammer, Zinsco breaker business unit sold to T&B. Eaton separated BR and CH plug in panel lines and moved both to production to Lincoln, IL.
So the only thing Zinsco and BR panels ever shared was the Challenger name briefly, but there was never a common design between them. I know that won’t change your mind if you already dislike BR panels, everyone has their own opinions, I just wanted to point out that they are not the same as Zinsco.
I tend to look at all the 1" wide breakers as about the same quality (Siemens, BR, SquareD Homeline, GE) and all the 3/4" wide breakers as a bit more premium (CH, SquareD QO.)"
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
The side clip-on breakers didn't use spring steal, and are among the worst offenders of burnt-bus bars.
If idiot proof is most apparent with age, 50yr old Pushmatic bolt-on's avoided bus-bar damage better than any brand.
ESolar
Senior Member
- Location
- Eureka, CA Humboldt County
- Occupation
- Electrician/Contractor
I am referring to the tabs (clips) under which the BR breakers slide before pushing down on to the bus bar(s). In my own BR panel, for example, the 70 amp will pop off if I move the #2 Al wires without holding down the breaker. They're not as secure as I would like.
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Except for factory-installed 4-pole 200A mains, resi-load centers won't typically fit #2 on branch breakers.
Sounds like your house needs this equipment below.
Attachments
Eaton BR loadcenters are Challenger designs, & formerly used Zinsco mains* in 150-225A MB panels, plenty of Zinsco heritage there, as I said they cater to the low end market, but I am in the anything but BR camp, & not fond of GE, but anything else is fine.What do you mean by Zinsco II (Eaton BR)? Eaton still makes BR panels. Eaton BR and Zinsco never were directly related. See this:
"1950-1972 Zinsco designs, sells, and evolves its plug-in panel and breaker line.Is this allowed or a defect?
Its getting a little off topic, but I respectfully disagree with the characterization of BR style panels as Zinsco heritage. Although there is some overlap in ownership, the panel and breaker designs were unrelated. Its complicated, but here’s a basic timeline: 1950-1972 Zinsco designs...
1973 Zinsco sells company to GTE Sylvania who continues selling product
1978 Panel line rebranded as “Challenger”, design remains the same
1982 GTE divests Zinsco to a new company created with Challenger Electric. The new company immediately stops making all Zinsco panels and redesigns all new panels and breakers with compatibility to Bryant and Crouse Hinds interiors. Replacement Zinsco breakers are continued to be made separaely for aftermarket purpose.
1988 Westinghouse acquires Challenger Electric, Bryant and Challenger brands merged and redesigned as BR, production moved from Bridgeport. CT to Jackson, MS.
1994 Westinghouse acquired by Eaton/Cutler Hammer, Zinsco breaker business unit sold to T&B. Eaton separated BR and CH plug in panel lines and moved both to production to Lincoln, IL.
So the only thing Zinsco and BR panels ever shared was the Challenger name briefly, but there was never a common design between them. I know that won’t change your mind if you already dislike BR panels, everyone has their own opinions, I just wanted to point out that they are not the same as Zinsco.
I tend to look at all the 1" wide breakers as about the same quality (Siemens, BR, SquareD Homeline, GE) and all the 3/4" wide breakers as a bit more premium (CH, SquareD QO.)"
* They were phased out after Eaton took over, only Zinsco style mains now are made by Milbank.
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