NEC 250.140 and 142

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Smart $

Smart $

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Ohio
Dennis Alwon said:
Sparky, it is many of our opinions that once a range is moved it is not an existing situation. As Bob pointed out you can ask the ahj to help you on this one but in many areas this would be considered a new installation.

Some inspectors in our area will allow the existing wire if it is not possible, without removal of walls, to add a new circuit.
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Question: What is everyone's view if a range is moved to a location where the existing branch circuit conductors would actually have to be cut shorter rather than extended?

IMO, the qualifying aspect for the exception is that it be an existing branch circuit for which a grounding conductor does not exist at the outlet or junction box. Sure it does not say the circuit can be extended or shortened, but it doesn't say that it cannot. The mere fact it includes the term junction box seems to imply it can be otherwise routed to some degree.
 
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viclibo

Member
If you move it you must bring it up to code. I just at a similar situation. Since the existing power source was a 4 wire I was able to add a J box and extend it to the new location. If the conductors had been a 3 wire I would of had to replace the feed from the panel
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
viclibo said:
If you move it you must bring it up to code. I just at a similar situation. Since the existing power source was a 4 wire I was able to add a J box and extend it to the new location. If the conductors had been a 3 wire I would of had to replace the feed from the panel
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FWIW: The exception states nothing about its location remaining in place.

Granted, there are many AHJ that will likely take the view that any change to the branch circuit will require bringing the entire branch circuit up to current code. IMO, that is an AHJ overflexing the scope of their authority.
 
iwire

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Smart $ said:
Question: What is everyone's view if a range is moved to a location where the existing branch circuit conductors would actually have to be cut shorter rather than extended?

IMO, the qualifying aspect for the exception is that it be an existing branch circuit for which a grounding conductor does not exist at the outlet or junction box. Sure it does not say the circuit can be extended or shortened, but it doesn't say that it cannot. The mere fact it includes the term junction box seems to imply it can be otherwise routed to some degree.
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I say it is not clear and talk to the inspector. :grin:

IMO there is no legal way to extend the circuit.

IMO there is no legal way to shorten it.

Longer or shorter it is new work that your doing, not existing or you would not be there. :smile:
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Someone has to make a call on this so it may as well be me. :grin: I am aware of the wording of the code that is why I said many of us believe that "if it is moved..... " The code does not answer our question clearly nor does it give us the authority to make the call. :grin: I know what accepted practice is around here and what the AHJ expects in this situation. Until the code clarifies this article I can only work it as the AHJ calls it. This is a no win situtaion.

Personally I see this as a change out from one range to another. Do I see a problem with extending the circuit.... Not really as long as the except. conditions are met.

Let's take it a step further and say we change the service and make the original panel a sub panel. Would you still allow, say, the se cable to be used on the existing range-- range is not being touched?
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
Once the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment is removed you will no longer have conductors between the final over-current device protecting the circuit and the outlet,.. essentially you have an abandoned wiring method that cannot be used as described in the O.P.

Having said that,. In many cases the Inspectors where I work will let it slide if it is a costly pain in the backside ,.. they however,.. are not on the hook.
 
iwire

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Dennis Alwon said:
Do I see a problem with extending the circuit.... Not really as long as the except. conditions are met.
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I don't think any of us have problem with the the safety aspect, I think what is under discussion is what the NEC requires.

Let's take it a step further and say we change the service and make the original panel a sub panel. Would you still allow, say, the se cable to be used on the existing range-- range is not being touched?
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Nope, that was never legal. :smile:
 
S

sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
confused

confused

Keep in mind that I have never done or been on a residential job. Started doing commercial and have been doing it for six years. I have done service entrance cable but only with 350 and 500MCM, cu, all 3ph, hv, lv, transfer switches, generators, and all the little things in between.

I have looked up all the code references that yall have given me. In the first post the postee talks about SE(service entrance) cable as I am to believe. But Iwire has stated that conductors to the oven are a branch circuit. Which to me is a HR.
Why is the postee stating that it is a SE?
And are equipment grounding electrodes not allowed to be tapped or spliced?
 
PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
sparkyboys said:
Keep in mind that I have never done or been on a residential job. Started doing commercial and have been doing it for six years. I have done service entrance cable but only with 350 and 500MCM, cu, all 3ph, hv, lv, transfer switches, generators, and all the little things in between.

I have looked up all the code references that yall have given me. In the first post the postee talks about SE(service entrance) cable as I am to believe. But Iwire has stated that conductors to the oven are a branch circuit. Which to me is a HR.
Why is the postee stating that it is a SE?
And are equipment grounding electrodes not allowed to be tapped or spliced?
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The SE that they're talking about is a bundled cable - 2 insulated and one bare stranded (wrapped around the two insulated). It's that flat gray cable you see feeding the meter socket on a single phase aerial service). They used to use that to feed 50A kitchen circuits. Nowadays you'd have to use an 8-3 or 6-3 w/ground to feed them.
 
S

sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
It's that flat gray cable you see feeding the meter socket on a single phase aerial service). They used to use that to feed 50A kitchen circuits. Nowadays you'd have to use an 8-3 or 6-3 w/ground to feed them.

thats i what i was thinking that the postee was using 8-3. thats what i thought this post was all about.

so now that i have new meaning to what the post is actually about, how was SE used to supply kitchen power?
by tapping the the meter socket?
and running additional SE cable to the kitchen to a disconnect?
 
resistance

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
Let's take it a step further and say we change the service and make the original panel a sub panel. Would you still allow, say, the se cable to be used on the existing range-- range is not being touched?
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No is my answer.


I knew this would open the door for conversion! From a safety stand point, my opinion on the matter is to install a new circuit.
 
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