What UPS...

[1793]

I have had a customer call looking to install a UPS for their sump pump. I would like to get some input for my esteemed colleagues. What size units and or $$ of UPS units you may have installed.

 

[iwire]

I have had a customer call looking to install a UPS for their sump pump. I would like to get some input for my esteemed colleagues. What size units and or $$ of UPS units you may have installed.

In my opinion you would be doing the customer a favor by selling them a complete new pump with back up as a packaged unit.

Any smaller UPS that is designed for PCs is going to have an issue with motor inrush. Size the unit big enough to handle it and I bet it is more money then a packaged pump with back up included. Then there are the costs of battery replacement as well.



(*If you really want to be good to the customer and lose some work you might suggest a water powered back up sump pump. No battery based system is going to able to move a lot of water before the batteries die)

 

[tkb]

How much $$ depends on the size of the motor and how much run time they want.
The longer the runtime the more battery required and more $$$$.

 

[SEO]

I agree with iwire go with a battery backed up unit a UPS large enough to take care of the pump would be very pricey.

 

[brian john]

I agree with iwire go with a battery backed up unit a UPS large enough to take care of the pump would be very pricey.

I would take a two path approach. I HAVE LOADS OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THIS, once went in the basement of my old house to find my two Dobermans floating across the floor on an old couch.

A water source pump which works off city or well water pressure and a second pimp with battery backup.

 

[SEO]

Brian what caused all the water to get into your basement?

 

[mxslick]

I would take a two path approach. I HAVE LOADS OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THIS, once went in the basement of my old house to find my two Dobermans floating across the floor on an old couch.

A water source pump which works off city or well water pressure and a second pimp with battery backup.

I haven't met any with battery back-up, just a big guy named Guido.

 

[Besoeker]

A water source pump which works off city or well water pressure and a second pimp with battery backup.

A pimp with battery back up.
Horrible image that.......

 

[dreamsville]

I agree with all of the above, (except the pimp) :smile:. If the customer has municipal/rural pressurized water service then a water powered backup unit is the way to go.

Batteries go dead, don't last long etc...

 

[hurk27]

The problem with UPS systems is not being able to get one with enough power to run a pump, but that most only produce a "modified sine wave" a square wave that motors don't like and run at about 60% of there speed. I have a full wave 750 watt Trip-Let inverter on my sump pump, with 3 12 volt deep cycle marine batteries on it, and it does fine, before if my power went out while it was raining my basement (finished) would have been flooded.
I also still have the 12 volt battery back up pump still hooked up also, but it would not keep up if power goes out in a storm.

 

[brian john]

Brian what caused all the water to get into your basement?

The section of the city I lived i the storm sewer and waste sewer were the same system, when we got too much rain the sewers backed up. PLus when they paved the streets in the 50's the streets ended up higher than the yards so basically we were swimming pools.

I used multiple pumps, Stopped up the floor drain, emptied the pumps in the street in lieu of in the yard and slopped my yard towards the street with TONS of fill. 12 years of battling then I sold it.

BIT off the topic SORRY

 

[wireguru]

The problem with UPS systems is not being able to get one with enough power to run a pump, but that most only produce a "modified sine wave" a square wave that motors don't like and run at about 60% of there speed. I have a full wave 750 watt Trip-Let inverter on my sump pump, with 3 12 volt deep cycle marine batteries on it, and it does fine, before if my power went out while it was raining my basement (finished) would have been flooded.
I also still have the 12 volt battery back up pump still hooked up also, but it would not keep up if power goes out in a storm.

hmm interesting. a use for the true sinewave inverters i found a while ago.....

 

[hurk27]

hmm interesting. a use for the true sinewave inverters i found a while ago.....

I also use them in my van to charge my batteries for my tools, lights and stuff, I have a 3600 watt Tripp-Let full sine wave also, but haven't put it in this van, my last van was totaled and I recovered it, but just never hooked it up as the economy went south, never know if job will last lately

 

[brian john]

I also use them in my van to charge my batteries for my tools, lights and stuff, I have a 3600 watt Tripp-Let full sine wave also, but haven't put it in this van, my last van was totaled and I recovered it, but just never hooked it up as the economy went south, never know if job will last lately

Be sure to size the line conductors properly. Had an electrician that put in a 3000 watt unit and it would not work when loaded. Well duh he ran #12 AWG for the 12 VDC.

 

[JohnJ0906]

The UPS I have for my computer said not to connect motors to it, and specifically mentioned not hooking a sump pump to it.

 

[brian john]

The UPS I have for my computer said not to connect motors to it, and specifically mentioned not hooking a sump pump to it.

MIGHT be to minimize liability?

 

[Besoeker]

The problem with UPS systems is not being able to get one with enough power to run a pump, but that most only produce a "modified sine wave" a square wave that motors don't like and run at about 60% of there speed.

A slight digression here.

In the early days of inverters, there were some that did have a square-wave or quasi square-wave output. Certainly, they did increase motor losses over pure sine wave operation. For a particular motor, you had to derate it some in terms of rated output power because of the increased RMS current. How much derating depended on the inverter topology and the motor pu reactance.

The advent of IGBTs from second generation onwards means that now, a reasonably good sinewave output can be synthesised using PWM techniques. With a little filtering, which many have built in, you often get a better wavevorm, better voltage stability and closer frequency tolerance than that obtained from the utility.

As I mentioned, it was a digression but in reference to your comment about the output waveform..
The main limitation with running a motor from a UPS is not quality of output. It is the capacity to deliver the required motor starting current.

 

[weressl]

I have had a customer call looking to install a UPS for their sump pump. I would like to get some input for my esteemed colleagues. What size units and or $$ of UPS units you may have installed.

UPS would be inappropriate for this type load. Since availability and reliability seems to be an issue an engineered system would be the appropriate answer. In other words suggest to the Customer that you will retain the services of an engineer to study the issue and develop the appropriate solution to it of which you will implement.

 

[LarryFine]

I have installed a couple of pumps that come with their own controller with battery back-up. A plumber supplied and installed the pump, which also comes with a 2-battery plastic box.

The pump itself runs on the 24vdc power supply, which is normally line-powered, and switches over to a pair of customer-provided deep-cycle batteries for power outages.

 

[hurk27]

I have installed a couple of pumps that come with their own controller with battery back-up. A plumber supplied and installed the pump, which also comes with a 2-battery plastic box.

The pump itself runs on the 24vdc power supply, which is normally line-powered, and switches over to a pair of customer-provided deep-cycle batteries for power outages.

H'mmm, the "Wayne" back up pump I have always runs off the battery's, and the controller/charger only keeps the battery charged, but it is only a back up pump mounted higher in the pit then the main (120v) pump, and is nothing but a small 12v bilge pump with a float, I would never trust it to keep up with the amount of water I get into my sump when it rains, I need to extend my down spouts father away from the house. but that does sound like a better pump then I have, like I said that is why I put my main pump on a inverter.

Oh and yes I installed 2 alarms on the sump also.