65 volts on the ground wire

[danickstr]

A properly soldered, wiped and taped splice is a perfectly good thing to find behind a wall. There are hundreds of thousands of them behind walls today in homes across America.

When the solder "falls off" then the journeyman or apprentice that day made a mistake and cold soldered the joint. While there is a greater responsibility with K&T during install, this does not mean that a properly done installation is a risky one. There are even arguments that would say it is a safer method due to the inability to drive a big screw into the wall and short both leads.

The assumption is that the install was done correctly and no one has tampered with it in the history of the home, which are big assumptions.

 

[LarryFine]

Did you even read the paper you posted? K&T was outlawed because of """FIRE""",,,,YEP,,,"""FIRE""".

So was aluminum BC wiring, but we're not required to completely strip a house of it every time we find it, nor do we even suggest it.

What is it with you? You are defending old, delapited wiring like it was your wife.

And you're attacking him like he's assaulting yours. Why not stick to the subject?

I have seen and touched wire that the solder twist was loose and spinning. Discolored from heat with a charr mark on the wood. You call that a lie?

I don't. I call it a cold solder joint. That's due to a lack of workmanship, not the lack of a sheath or a box. Cold solder joints can occur inside boxes, too.

I've also seen loose and spinning wirenuts, as well as discolored, charred, and completely disintegrated ones. Shall we outlaw wirenuts, or just require that they be used correctly?

This is a contractor forum. Not an apprentice forum. What are you a 2nd year apprentice?

And, in my ever-so-humble opinion, you're not behaving with the greatest professionalism here, either. He believes that he's just as right as you believe you are. It's just a difference of opinion.



"Lighten up, Francis!" ~ Sgt. Hulka in Stripes

 

[Power Tech]

So was aluminum BC wiring, but we're not required to completely strip a house of it every time we find it, nor do we even suggest it.

And you're attacking him like he's assaulting yours. Why not stick to the subject?

I don't. I call it a cold solder joint. That's due to a lack of workmanship, not the lack of a sheath or a box. Cold solder joints can occur inside boxes, too.

I've also seen loose and spinning wirenuts, as well as discolored, charred, and completely disintegrated ones. Shall we outlaw wirenuts, or just require that they be used correctly?

And, in my ever-so-humble opinion, you're not behaving with the greatest professionalism here, either. He believes that he's just as right as you believe you are. It's just a difference of opinion.



"Lighten up, Francis!" ~ Sgt. Hulka in Stripes

I think it is a K&T fire hazard - so what.

Is that a reason to say I am a fraud?

He crossed the line into personal integrity. Am I supposed to ignore the insults.

Oh / and a lier.

 

[LarryFine]

I think it is a K&T fire hazard - so what.

No biggie. But, you were every bit as vehement in your defense of your opinion as he was in his.

Is that a reason to say I am a fraud?

Of course not. People are always welcome to get another opinion, just like with doctors.

He crossed the line into personal integrity. Am I supposed to ignore the insults.

Not ignore, but don't respond with personal relationships, either. Like Patrick Swayze said in Road House, "Opinions vary."

Oh / and a lier.

The best reaction to an ad homonym argument is no reaction at all.

We've each had our own and differing experiences. I was brought up working on K&T, and have found the vast majority of it, when not messed with, to function without incident.

It's the, shall we say, under-educated who add load after load to existing circuits, thinking that each 15a receptacle should be able to deliver 15a without limit.

"I can't be overdrawn; I have checks left!"

 

[e57]

If Al romex makes a come back. I will not use it. Just like we did not use it in the 80's.

I wouldn't doubt you would use, just to prove a point. You probably smoke and leave the engine on when you fill up.

Did you even read the paper you posted? K&T was outlawed because of """FIRE""",,,,YEP,,,"""FIRE""".

And enough with your Harlequin Romance Crime Scene Investigation Fantasy. Don't give up the day job.

What is it with you? You are defending old, delapited wiring like it was your wife.

What did you do to have so much ego invested in K&T.

My personal opinion is it is a fire hazard. It almost electrocuted a friend of mine in the attic. I have seen and touched wire that the solder twist was loose and spinning. Discolored from heat with a charr mark on the wood. You call that a lie?

I think twice before calling someone a lire and a fraud.

This is a contractor forum. Not an apprentice forum. What are you a 2nd year apprentice?

Ok I'm back.... I quess I'll have to color code these????

1. 90% of SE conductors are AL in this country, and today's AL conductors are not your granpa's AL conductors - advances in alloys have brought them back with a vengeance, and yes - there will be a day - soon that the will be back in the branch wiring.
2. Yes - and I light my smoke with a road flare at every gas station - being careful not to fill up - so that I can hit a few gas stations each day.
3. Did I read it? - look closer - I wrote it... And if you read it again the two mentions of fire hazards are SF with holding out use of NM (Romex) because they thought it was dangerous - as IMO it was at the time... At the time SF held back NM (Romex) was 2-wire cloth and cambric - much like what was in the picture you posted. And the other was Chicago who until only recently from what I understand NO cable methods were allowed at all - using fire as a reasoning....
4. Yes you will often find scorching on the wood around splices in K&T often the wiring was heated with a torch if they could not get the solder ladle in, or if the install was of a later date. I often use a propane torch myself and a fire blanket to protect the wood.
5. I think you are wrong, and I am saying so...
6. See above...
7. Again I think you are wrong, and selling whole house re-wires for the simple fact that K&T is in a building is an act of fraud. I will again say that misinforming people for the benefit more business could be many things... I have been hit by numerous little shock hazards over the years properly installed and maintained K&T is really low on the list. And I have seen poor quality wiring in just about every wiring method there is, truthfully - I see much more of it in NM (Romex). I have also seen way too many burnt connections with splices in boxes with wire nuts, and stabbed devices as well. That too is not a lie - just what I see... My opinion.
8. Take careful note: I did not CALL you a liar, or a fraud. But yes - calling something a fire hazard and selling rewires as if their house were going to burn down any second is a lie, and an act of fraud.... Sorry if you feel offended - but it is what it is...
9. This will be my 20 th consecutive year in the trade. And although I hold a license - I prefer 40 straight with over-time, with no risk of loss if I miss a sheet in a bid. Someone else misses a sheet in a bid - I still get paid to run it for them...

Let us make some analogies....

Say you are a Doctor... Some old man comes in for a consult - about a liver spot on his leg... Your immediate response is - "Hey that is CANCER! It'll spread throughout your body over night... We'll have to amputate that leg RIGHT NOW!"

Sure a liver spot could become cancerous - but is it right now? And does it require amputation?

 

[Power Tech]

No biggie. But, you were every bit as vehement in your defense of your opinion as he was in his.

Of course not. People are always welcome to get another opinion, just like with doctors.

Not ignore, but don't respond with personal relationships, either. Like Patrick Swayze said in Road House, "Opinions vary."

The best reaction to an ad homonym argument is no reaction at all.

We've each had our own and differing experiences. I was brought up working on K&T, and have found the vast majority of it, when not messed with, to function without incident.

It's the, shall we say, under-educated who add load after load to existing circuits, thinking that each 15a receptacle should be able to deliver 15a without limit.

"I can't be overdrawn; I have checks left!"

Don't mind the opinions / can't and will not put up with the insults.

I sure do not enjoy defending my integrity or attacking someone.

I have my fathers lead pot, ladle, and spoon. He showed me how it was done. I have no ego about the subject.

I tried to refer the job in question to another contractor.
I didn't want it. She insisted I do the job through referrals and would not take no for an answer.

The product I sell today is superior to the products installed nearly a 100 years ago. Though someday they will be obsolete. As I attempt to make everything last as long as possible....--

Nothing lasts forever. What day is the last day - You guess.

 

[growler]

Let us make some analogies....

Say you are a Doctor... Some old man comes in for a consult - about a liver spot on his leg... Your immediate response is - "Hey that is CANCER! It'll spread throughout your body over night... We'll have to amputate that leg RIGHT NOW!"

Sure a liver spot could become cancerous - but is it right now? And does it require amputation?

It really depends on how bad the doctor needs to make those alimony payments. With three ex-wives and about 15K a month in alimony payments I'm afraid that leg may have to come off.

 

[Power Tech]

Ok I'm back.... I quess I'll have to color code these????

1. 90% of SE conductors are AL in this country, and today's AL conductors are not your granpa's AL conductors - advances in alloys have brought them back with a vengeance, and yes - there will be a day - soon that the will be back in the branch wiring.
2. Yes - and I light my smoke with a road flare at every gas station - being careful not to fill up - so that I can hit a few gas stations each day.
3. Did I read it? - look closer - I wrote it... And if you read it again the two mentions of fire hazards are SF with holding out use of NM (Romex) because they thought it was dangerous - as IMO it was at the time... At the time SF held back NM (Romex) was 2-wire cloth and cambric - much like what was in the picture you posted. And the other was Chicago who until only recently from what I understand NO cable methods were allowed at all - using fire as a reasoning....
4. Yes you will often find scorching on the wood around splices in K&T often the wiring was heated with a torch if they could not get the solder ladle in, or if the install was of a later date. I often use a propane torch myself and a fire blanket to protect the wood.
5. I think you are wrong, and I am saying so...
6. See above...
7. Again I think you are wrong, and selling whole house re-wires for the simple fact that K&T is in a building is an act of fraud. I will again say that misinforming people for the benefit more business could be many things... I have been hit by numerous little shock hazards over the years properly installed and maintained K&T is really low on the list. And I have seen poor quality wiring in just about every wiring method there is, truthfully - I see much more of it in NM (Romex). I have also seen way too many burnt connections with splices in boxes with wire nuts, and stabbed devices as well. That too is not a lie - just what I see... My opinion.
8. Take careful note: I did not CALL you a liar, or a fraud. But yes - calling something a fire hazard and selling rewires as if their house were going to burn down any second is a lie, and an act of fraud.... Sorry if you feel offended - but it is what it is...
9. This will be my 20 th consecutive year in the trade. And although I hold a license - I prefer 40 straight with over-time, with no risk of loss if I miss a sheet in a bid. Someone else misses a sheet in a bid - I still get paid to run it for them...

Let us make some analogies....

Say you are a Doctor... Some old man comes in for a consult - about a liver spot on his leg... Your immediate response is - "Hey that is CANCER! It'll spread throughout your body over night... We'll have to amputate that leg RIGHT NOW!"

Sure a liver spot could become cancerous - but is it right now? And does it require amputation?

If I lived in a house with K&T, it would be rewired. If I rented a house and it had K&T, it would be rewired. Sure I have seen other wiring situations even more dangerous. They were cited and corrected.

I would never / never take a job where the person wanted me to do half and leave some of the K&T. Than again, not being the owner, you don't care. I care.

 

[Power Tech]

It really depends on how bad the doctor needs to make those alimony payments. With three ex-wives and about 15K a month in alimony payments I'm afraid that leg may have to come off.

Funny, funny, can't stop laughing!!

 

[Power Tech]

Ok I'm back.... I quess I'll have to color code these????

1. 90% of SE conductors are AL in this country, and today's AL conductors are not your granpa's AL conductors - advances in alloys have brought them back with a vengeance, and yes - there will be a day - soon that the will be back in the branch wiring.
2. Yes - and I light my smoke with a road flare at every gas station - being careful not to fill up - so that I can hit a few gas stations each day.
3. Did I read it? - look closer - I wrote it... And if you read it again the two mentions of fire hazards are SF with holding out use of NM (Romex) because they thought it was dangerous - as IMO it was at the time... At the time SF held back NM (Romex) was 2-wire cloth and cambric - much like what was in the picture you posted. And the other was Chicago who until only recently from what I understand NO cable methods were allowed at all - using fire as a reasoning....
4. Yes you will often find scorching on the wood around splices in K&T often the wiring was heated with a torch if they could not get the solder ladle in, or if the install was of a later date. I often use a propane torch myself and a fire blanket to protect the wood.
5. I think you are wrong, and I am saying so...
6. See above...
7. Again I think you are wrong, and selling whole house re-wires for the simple fact that K&T is in a building is an act of fraud. I will again say that misinforming people for the benefit more business could be many things... I have been hit by numerous little shock hazards over the years properly installed and maintained K&T is really low on the list. And I have seen poor quality wiring in just about every wiring method there is, truthfully - I see much more of it in NM (Romex). I have also seen way too many burnt connections with splices in boxes with wire nuts, and stabbed devices as well. That too is not a lie - just what I see... My opinion.
8. Take careful note: I did not CALL you a liar, or a fraud. But yes - calling something a fire hazard and selling rewires as if their house were going to burn down any second is a lie, and an act of fraud.... Sorry if you feel offended - but it is what it is...
9. This will be my 20 th consecutive year in the trade. And although I hold a license - I prefer 40 straight with over-time, with no risk of loss if I miss a sheet in a bid. Someone else misses a sheet in a bid - I still get paid to run it for them...

Let us make some analogies....

Say you are a Doctor... Some old man comes in for a consult - about a liver spot on his leg... Your immediate response is - "Hey that is CANCER! It'll spread throughout your body over night... We'll have to amputate that leg RIGHT NOW!"

Sure a liver spot could become cancerous - but is it right now? And does it require amputation?

On #4 Please tell me you do not tap into K&T by torch soldering.

 

[mivey]

If I lived in a house with K&T, it would be rewired. If I rented a house and it had K&T, it would be rewired. Sure I have seen other wiring situations even more dangerous. They were cited and corrected.

I would never / never take a job where the person wanted me to do half and leave some of the K&T. Than again, not being the owner, you don't care. I care.

If the K&T were in bad shape, I would replace it. The same as I would if romex were in bad shape.

I have lived in a house with K&T and did not replace it, although I did check to be sure the additions were done correctly. Many were not done correctly and I re-worked those. A good K&T joint, properly used & un-abused, will outlive most wirenuts as there is nothing to give way. I have seen many wirenuts decay and fall apart. That's why I'm a pre-twister and don't depend on the wirenut alone to make the joint.

If the walls and ceilings were open, I would replace it because of the EMF and grounding issues.

If I saw something unsafe, I would fix it. I do not think K&T is unsafe by default. I usually judge things by how I would do for myself and my family (actually better than that).

The level of "caring" is always weighed against money. That is how we operate in our daily lives, in most everything we do. We eventually reach a point where the money we have says: "that is safe enough". That is just the way it is.

 

[George Stolz]

Don't mind the opinions / can't and will not put up with the insults.

I sure do not enjoy defending my integrity or attacking someone.

So do your part to end it now. Mark has said his piece, you've made your position clear, and right now the scales are balanced, as I see it. I ask you both to let it go, you've made your respective points and the original poster has plenty to think about. There's no reason to get personal.

Thanks,

 

[e57]

If I lived in a house with K&T, it would be rewired. If I rented a house and it had K&T, it would be rewired. Sure I have seen other wiring situations even more dangerous. They were cited and corrected.

I would never / never take a job where the person wanted me to do half and leave some of the K&T. Than again, not being the owner, you don't care. I care.

ME: What I expect from professionals that I hire to do ANYTHING. Be it plumbers, doctors, dentists, mechanics - legal advise.... Is exactly what I give people when discussing the wiring in their home or business. An informed - educated unbiased assessment of condition, cost vs benefit, code compliance, and safety based on industry standards, and experience. If any wiring method is below these standards, it is discussed... And if there are things that not in the scope of contract they are still discussed - if they are required to be corrected based on those criteria - they get corrected. And that is for ANY wiring method.

IMO - you do not know enough about K&T to make an informed unbiased decision about it. Sure there are times when it should go, and yes there are times when it is perfectly safe to keep it. That is where we differ - and we'll leave it at that. Millions of home have it - they are not on fire right now, or will they all be next month, or next year - or for that matter next decade. And if they burn it will not be because the have K&T - it will be because there is a defect in it, or by some other unrelated issue.

Do you show up at peoples homes and open the panel and tell them the house is going to burn down because they have no AFCI's in it?

 

[LarryFine]

Do you show up at peoples homes and open the panel and tell them the house is going to burn down because they have no AFCI's in it?

Hmmmm! :roll:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think it is a K&T fire hazard - so what. ...

Properly installed and unmodified knob and tube wiring is less of a fire hazard than is properly installed NM. There is absolutely no question about this fact. The only real issue is the lack of an EGC. Note, most knob and tube that you find now has been modified in ways that will make it less safe, but that is not caused by the wiring method itself, it is cuased by the person who made the modifications.

 

[growler]

OK so knob and tube was a great wiring method in it's day but it really doesn't meet todays demands. All you have to do is check Article 394.12 (5), Uses not permitted: Hollow spaces of walls, ceilings, and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors.

How many homeowners are willing to give up insulating said areas just to keep the good old K&T wiring. Not many because most homes either have rolled insulation in the attic or 2 ft. of blown insulation.

The reason most remodeling contractors don't remove the old sheetrock or plaster is because they can blow insulation materials into the walls.

It's just real hard to keep this method and end up with an energy efficient home.

Once you start to remove the old wiring is there any reason to leave some for nostalgic purposes, not really. The best thing to do is a complete rewire and bring everthing up to todays code, that way any service tech that comes out for any reason should be familiar with this wiring method. The GC can put insulation where ever they want and all the bored holes can be caulked to keep insects and rodents out. The holes in the top plate of walls can now be caulked to prevent ventilating a fire in the walls.

Knob and Tube wiring was a great method for it's day but the Model-T Ford was a great car for it's day, but even old Henry Ford had to give up and produce a new model.

 

[mivey]

OK so knob and tube was a great wiring method in it's day but it really doesn't meet todays demands. All you have to do is check Article 394.12 (5), Uses not permitted: Hollow spaces of walls, ceilings, and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors.

How many homeowners are willing to give up insulating said areas just to keep the good old K&T wiring. Not many because most homes either have rolled insulation in the attic or 2 ft. of blown insulation.

The reason most remodeling contractors don't remove the old sheetrock or plaster is because they can blow insulation materials into the walls.

It's just real hard to keep this method and end up with an energy efficient home.

Once you start to remove the old wiring is there any reason to leave some for nostalgic purposes, not really. The best thing to do is a complete rewire and bring everthing up to todays code, that way any service tech that comes out for any reason should be familiar with this wiring method. The GC can put insulation where ever they want and all the bored holes can be caulked to keep insects and rodents out. The holes in the top plate of walls can now be caulked to prevent ventilating a fire in the walls.

Knob and Tube wiring was a great method for it's day but the Model-T Ford was a great car for it's day, but even old Henry Ford had to give up and produce a new model.

I had a 50+ year old home with wood siding, plaster walls, a remodeled attic and very low heating/cooling costs. Leaving the walls uninsulated was not a problem. From an energy standpoint, the space between the bottom and top floor winds up being conditioned space anyway and any extra insulation would just add sound dampening (kind of like an inside wall).

I'm sure the newly insulated attic was a big help in reducing the energy costs. The shade trees helped as well. Insulating the walls may not always be a given.

I did not bother to insulate the barn.

 

[Power Tech]

ME: What I expect from professionals that I hire to do ANYTHING. Be it plumbers, doctors, dentists, mechanics - legal advise.... Is exactly what I give people when discussing the wiring in their home or business. An informed - educated unbiased assessment of condition, cost vs benefit, code compliance, and safety based on industry standards, and experience. If any wiring method is below these standards, it is discussed... And if there are things that not in the scope of contract they are still discussed - if they are required to be corrected based on those criteria - they get corrected. And that is for ANY wiring method.

IMO - you do not know enough about K&T to make an informed unbiased decision about it. Sure there are times when it should go, and yes there are times when it is perfectly safe to keep it. That is where we differ - and we'll leave it at that.

I know enough, being the owner, that I don't want to get that call asking me how much insurance I have.

Your self confirming double talk conversations that you have with yourself IMO is very insulting.
I am not saying you are a lier but "IMO" you lie.
I am not saying you are a fraud but "IMO" your actions are fraud.
I am not saying you are a thief but, "IMO" you steal.

Why don't we all just say "I'm not saying you are a ________ but, IMO you are a ****_______.

IMO it's obvious you are puffed up with your own knowledge and have an agenda to prove a point.

I'm not hassling you. Im just you

 

[mivey]

ME: What I expect from professionals that I hire to do ANYTHING. Be it plumbers, doctors, dentists, mechanics - legal advise.... Is exactly what I give people when discussing the wiring in their home or business. An informed - educated unbiased assessment of condition, cost vs benefit, code compliance, and safety based on industry standards, and experience. If any wiring method is below these standards, it is discussed... And if there are things that not in the scope of contract they are still discussed - if they are required to be corrected based on those criteria - they get corrected. And that is for ANY wiring method.

IMO - you do not know enough about K&T to make an informed unbiased decision about it. Sure there are times when it should go, and yes there are times when it is perfectly safe to keep it. That is where we differ - and we'll leave it at that.

I know enough, being the owner, that I don't want to get that call asking me how much insurance I have.

Your self confirming double talk conversations that you have with yourself IMO is very insulting.
I am not saying you are a lier but "IMO" you lie.
I am not saying you are a fraud but "IMO" your actions are fraud.
I am not saying you are a thief but, "IMO" you steal.

Why don't we all just say "I'm not saying you are a ________ but, IMO you are a ****_______.

IMO it's obvious you are puffed up with your own knowledge and have an agenda to prove a point.

I'm not hassling you. Im just you

Then how about a piece of friendly advice?

Ignore him and listen to the rest of us who are telling you in a nicer way that you are wrong to make a blanket statement that K&T is dangerous.

I haven't addressed what you have done with what you have in your mind because the real problem is that you are wrong to look at it that way.

I can understand your passionate actions because you think it is inherently unsafe.

I don't think your are out to mis-lead your customers. I think you are mis-lead yourself and are taking actions based on your error.

That said, take the opportunity to learn something and get your thinking straight.

I don't think you would be this passionate if you did not care. But care enough to get the correct perspective.

 

[e57]

On #4 Please tell me you do not tap into K&T by torch soldering.

Yes - on occasion... Depends if I can get the 1200w iron out to where the splice needs to be made - torch or iron IMO is fine - both are heat... I would however suggest staying away from MAPP gas - a little too hot...

OK so knob and tube was a great wiring method in it's day but it really doesn't meet todays demands. All you have to do is check Article 394.12 (5), Uses not permitted: Hollow spaces of walls, ceilings, and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors.

How many homeowners are willing to give up insulating said areas just to keep the good old K&T wiring. Not many because most homes either have rolled insulation in the attic or 2 ft. of blown insulation.

The reason most remodeling contractors don't remove the old sheetrock or plaster is because they can blow insulation materials into the walls.

It's just real hard to keep this method and end up with an energy efficient home.

For many years in my area, insulation companies have had to contact a licensed electrician to be signatory to the waiver for the POCO and file this waiver with the AHJ - I posted a link to the one typical to this area earlier.... So yes in some cases you can insulate with it in place - not particularly fond of it, but it does generate a good deal of work on older homes - mostly in corrections - but yes of course some don't cut the mustard and I get to say no dice. "Start over!" It doesn't make everyone happy - but that not my forte.... But often will save someone from a full remodel, but regardless things do get corrected.

I am not saying you are a lier but "IMO" you lie.
I am not saying you are a fraud but "IMO" your actions are fraud.

Lets keep the emotional part at bay.... And again sorry you feel offended - But... Your opinion - even your professional opinion is what it is... However, if some old lady gets a bid for her house house to be rewired under false or misleading circumstance, out of fear it might burn down... Then talks to her neighbor who calls another electrician and gets a second opinion.... Maybe get two or more opinions that are not quite your personal opinion. What if - that neighbor decides you were being predatory? Even though your personal and professional opinion, is exactly as you feel is the best intentioned - you still might be having a heart to heart with you license board - who may have other opinions on the matter. THAT is all I have been trying to say.

FYI - I have no love loss for FPE panels, and consider them dangerous, BUT - I have to stay objective about it.