Pre-made fixture whips

[Power Tech]

The master / slave fixtures I have always used 1 for 1. The share a ballast and are usually set up A/B switching.

MC daisy chain is the way I would go.

Your a big strong guy. You should be able to do it for a 1/2 hr a fixture.

If not, we all know you like to work.

After everything is said and done, let us know if that covered it.

 

[LarryFine]

After everything is said and done, let us know if that covered it.

This is just for the bidding. They're 3-tube T-8 fixtures, a total of about 100. Ceiling at about 12 feet, with the bar-joist roof about 8 feet above that.

I will have to use 3-wire for two sets of about 10 fixtures each, and add a ballast to 8 to 10 of them, because the specs call for the center tubes to be both on 24/7 as night-lights, and battery powered for egress lighting.

So, I have to add extra time for the additional work involved in the wiring and ballast mounting. I'll probably allow an hour each for these.

 

[renosteinke]

I was asked to support my statement that you were not allowed to "daisy chain" fixtures together using factory whips. This is my justification of that position.

We are required to have all the wire in a circuit meet the ampacity of the circuit; the ampacity is defined as the size of the breaker. This is particularly relevant here, as 210.23(B) allows a lighting circuit to be as large as 30 amps.

We're also allowed to use the fixture itself as a raceway (even without it being marked as such) when connecting strings of lights. This is discussed in 410.64 and 410.65. It's worth noting that these wires passing through the fixture are referred to as 'branch circuit' conductors.

Because that's where the issue hangs: just where does the branch circuit end, and the listed (410.6) fixture begin?

I submit that, as a matter of definition, any wire supplying more than one fixture is still part of the branch circuit, and thus has to comply with branch circuit ampacity rules. Kiss that #19 whip good-bye. Tap rules can't apply, as there is no over-current device at the other end of the whip.

402.10 and 402.11 address the use of fixture wires as branch circuit conductors. I believe that these two sections, when combined, are an attempt to address this point. You can use the fixture's wires to supply that fixture, but not other fixtures.

I will concede one might encounter a similar situation using Reloc, or other factory-made wiring system. In those instances, though, the system is listed as a whole, and I believe it is acceptable as long as the directions are followed.

 

[Power Tech]

This is just for the bidding. They're 3-tube T-8 fixtures, a total of about 100. Ceiling at about 12 feet, with the bar-joist roof about 8 feet above that.

I will have to use 3-wire for two sets of about 10 fixtures each, and add a ballast to 8 to 10 of them, because the specs call for the center tubes to be both on 24/7 as night-lights, and battery powered for egress lighting.

So, I have to add extra time for the additional work involved in the wiring and ballast mounting. I'll probably allow an hour each for these.

That would be twice as good.

You wont have to do the river dance or push.

 

[iwire]

I will have to use 3-wire for two sets of about 10 fixtures each, and add a ballast to 8 to 10 of them, because the specs call for the center tubes to be both on 24/7 as night-lights, and battery powered for egress lighting

We would order the fixtures with all that done for us. Your buying 100 fixtures, not 10 so they are likely to be direct shipped anyway.

The manufacturers know what AB switching is and they know how to do battery back ups.

 

[hurk27]

We would order the fixtures with all that done for us. Your buying 100 fixtures, not 10 so they are likely to be direct shipped anyway.

The manufacturers know what AB switching is and they know how to do battery back ups.

and will probably save a ton of money in the process, buying those battery back up inverters, are almost $450.00 to buy separately, but you can buy them as part of the fixture, in many cases cheaper then the separate prices of each., many manufactures will throw in the whips for free.

 

[iwire]

The last few office remodels I did we ordered the fixture with lamps, AB switching, battery ballasts and we specified how they where packaged.

2' x 4' fixtures without boxes, stood on end in a single row and shrink wrapped on narrow pallets. With a narrow pallet jack we can then move them around a finished building with little trouble and the lack of cardboard to deal with is a major plus.

 

[cschmid]

you are correct bob, you can specify the terms on 100 fixtures.

You do have screws ups on special orders once in awhile though. I got 200 fixtures for a library and when we went to hang them they forgot to put the prewire harnesses in them and we had to disassemble every fixture and install the harnesses. added couple of days to the job and missed the deadline..they reimbursed the costs of the mistake and labor to fix but it was hassle. Yet 1 out of many jobs stuff occures and life moves on.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

That looks like where I'm heading. Would you say 30 minutes per fixture including unpacking, making a whip from MC, laying in the grid, attaching, wiring, and lamping? Customer is supplying materials and the lift.

Depends on if ceiling is more than 8 or 10 feet high. Are grid wires already in place. Yes a good man could do this in 30 minutes each. That is not counting travel or breaks and assuming reasonable working conditions. Your really pushing your your men hard and if they are not young journeymen i think your your dreaming. Also you need to figure in things like clean up , trash removal , fire marshal might want added screws or grid wire support. What is in way of the man. With no prewire or grid wires i think your dreaming. Lets try for 10 or 12 in 8 hour day and that depends on perfect conditions.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Almost forgot ,i am thinking daisey chain MC and you said nothing about NL or EM

 

[LarryFine]

We would order the fixtures with all that done for us. Your buying 100 fixtures, not 10 so they are likely to be direct shipped anyway.

The manufacturers know what AB switching is and they know how to do battery back ups.

If it were up to me, they'd come ballasted to order, as well as pre-whipped and lamped.

They're already on site. The guy is be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Alas, it is not meant to be. :roll:

That's okay, he'll just have to pay me (or someone else) to do the work instead of the factory.

 

[quogueelectric]

Depends on if ceiling is more than 8 or 10 feet high. Are grid wires already in place. Yes a good man could do this in 30 minutes each. That is not counting travel or breaks and assuming reasonable working conditions. Your really pushing your your men hard and if they are not young journeymen i think your your dreaming. Also you need to figure in things like clean up , trash removal , fire marshal might want added screws or grid wire support. What is in way of the man. With no prewire or grid wires i think your dreaming. Lets try for 10 or 12 in 8 hour day and that depends on perfect conditions.

You could charge 40 dollars a high hat too but why would you do that to yourself???

 

[LarryFine]

Depends on if ceiling is more than 8 or 10 feet high.

Grid at 12 ft, owner provides the lift, and will have support wires installed if inspector requires them.

Yes a good man could do this in 30 minutes each. That is not counting travel or breaks and assuming reasonable working conditions. Your really pushing your your men hard and if they are not young journeymen i think your your dreaming.

What about two men working together, with a third on the ground fetching materials and moving cardboard?

Also you need to figure in things like clean up , trash removal , fire marshal might want added screws or grid wire support.

The owner will have his grunts do the trash. I'm expecting a return call in the morning from the inspector, so I'll know about support and securing before I finalize the bid.

With no prewire or grid wires i think your dreaming. Lets try for 10 or 12 in 8 hour day and that depends on perfect conditions.

We'll likely be making our own whips of MC. So you're thinking more like 45 minutes per, eh?

 

[LarryFine]

The last few office remodels I did . . .

If you recall, how did it work out timewise per fixture for you?

 

[LarryFine]

The manufacturers know what AB switching is and they know how to do battery back ups.

Only 8 are on the plan to be done that way, but it may end up being more to satisfy the egress requirements.

 

[LarryFine]

You could charge 40 dollars a high hat too but why would you do that to yourself???

So, what's your estimate, time-wise? I want to come up with a per-fixture price. That's why I'm asking about time, not money. I have a per-hour price in mind.

 

[LarryFine]

I talked with the inspector this morning, and the bend-out fixture clips are fine, as long as they hold, and as long as the grid is pop-riveted to the wall angles.

The MC cables, of course, must be supported by their own wires, which must be ID'ed, so I guess we'll batch-spray-paint the ends red, and I'll just use bat-wings.

What spacing should I use? A wire at the edge of the fixture and every 4.5' otherwise? When you exceed 6' and need support, what are the applicable rules?

 

[Knownot]

A passing above ceiling inspection... no less than an hour a fixture. Inspector will be looking at more than light fixtures.

 

[LarryFine]

A passing above ceiling inspection... no less than an hour a fixture. Inspector will be looking at more than light fixtures.

I'll only be responsible for my work. It's in my contract.

 

[Power Tech]

I talked with the inspector this morning, and the bend-out fixture clips are fine, as long as they hold, and as long as the grid is pop-riveted to the wall angles.

The MC cables, of course, must be supported by their own wires, which must be ID'ed, so I guess we'll batch-spray-paint the ends red, and I'll just use bat-wings.

What spacing should I use? A wire at the edge of the fixture and every 4.5' otherwise? When you exceed 6' and need support, what are the applicable rules?

If you are still in the grid, we are required to shoot or screw in a wire and tie it to a main runner. Clip your conduit within a foot of the grid or ceiling. We have seismic codes, yours may differ (hurricane).

I believe the code states mc is to be securely fastened.

I have seen tie wire pass.

If he is supplying the material I would get the clips.