Harmonic affects

[iwire]

I think you are ill informed, many electricians can actually teach you (yes even you) if you listen.

Not possible, mere mortals cannot instruct the mighty Oz.

 

[weressl]

I think you are ill informed, many electricians can actually teach you (yes even you) if you listen.
Roger

Not may but certanily some. As I mentioned before I WAS an electrician before became an electrical engineer.

My statement refers to the fact that an electrician, just by that qualification alone, is not qualified to perform a harmonic study or analysis.

 

[brian john]

Not may but certanily some. As I mentioned before I WAS an electrician before became an electrical engineer.

My statement refers to the fact that an electrician, just by that qualification alone, is not qualified to perform a harmonic study or analysis.

Many electricians cannot wire 3-ways or do fire alarms, it depends on their speciality and what they endeavor to learn and practice. 25% of my customers are EC's another 15% are electrical engineers, they hire me because I have a speciality, just as I hire them if I need work they specialize in.

From what I have seen engineers as do electricians only usually learn/know what they have to, to work in their particular field.

 

[cschmid]

If you are suspicious with all doctors, I am flattered to be suspected by you. Have you ever being told that you are too paranoid?

Yes, there are dishonest doctors, yes there are dishonest engineers. I trust that you have met some dishonest electrical technicians (or more than some). Are you trustful?

Give some trust to people. Most of them deserve it.

No doubt :grin:

 

[cschmid]

But no need to stay dog-bit. I agree we see a lot of unscrupulous goings-on but we should still try to search for the true value in people. At least when it is just postings here, we are not at immediate risk. We can afford to be a little more patient here until we can get enough info to start making judgments. I'm not really sure that in this type of forum if we could ever get all the details. Even in life, isn't there a saying about if we had all the information we needed to make a decision that it would not be a decision but a forgone conclusion?

Naturally, you have to be more defensive on the job and can't afford to be so open. Here we can judge what is currently posted, and try not to be biased by those that have come before. I'm not pontificating as I face the same things myself and often forget.

Anyway, back to our regularly-scheduled programming.

OH my we all bring in our own bias even if we say we don't..your nurturing was different then my nurturing..so we all have biases and that is really what makes for a good discussion..

My non scientific statistics shows that the forum moderators has one opinion, while all other posts have the opposite opinion.

What does it mean? Is it due to their experience with discussions with sales people, or maybe the forum selects its moderator according to their approach?

Now this is looking for a negative discussion and I know I have sought some out my self and have realized it is a no win situation.

I do not see loading anywhere near that level in modern buildings designed under the NEC.

Brian Johns testing seems to bear that out. The problems seem to be in old buildings that have been changed to new uses without proper engineering.

The NEC is a set of basic safety instruction and not a design manual..So lets quit using it as a design manual and remember it is a safety standard..

I would hate to see you guys in a thread with Mike Holt and Stray voltage.

I will likely die never seeing an issue with stray voltage. I enjoy learning about. I have seen a couple issues with harmonics, and we design around harmonics, transients, noise in every project.

Dang and I have seen both and really can say there are more issues by the time you are at the end then when you started and normally need legal assistance to solve them..

And in my experience are all a result of poor management, poor design, poor planning, poor ongoing maintenance.

My My why did you have to go there..the lack of proper management normally means higher profits or longer litigation..

Wow. All this has been very interesting reading. There is, however, a consideration that may not have been mentioned. Back in the mid '80's, this problem was addressed by the IEC and international standard developed by manufacturers to limit the amount of harmonics that could be put back into the electrical system by equipment. Without this, by now the systems would probably be burning like the Chicago fire.

http://www.ptsdcs.com/whitepapers/24.pdf

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Now I have not read that white paper in a couple of years..



So harmonics is like energy conservation....on the immediate look into a single space in time it looks like an over sold issue with no immediate payback for the single situation..now multiply that by thousands and even millions now there is an issue..so now back to the show how do you propose to make a single instance the one that starts to make a difference..

 

[weressl]

Many electricians cannot wire 3-ways or do fire alarms, it depends on their speciality and what they endeavor to learn and practice. 25% of my customers are EC's another 15% are electrical engineers, they hire me because I have a speciality, just as I hire them if I need work they specialize in.

From what I have seen engineers as do electricians only usually learn/know what they have to, to work in their particular field.

..and what is your speciality and what independent third party verified qualifications do you have for such claim?

 

[brian john]

I solve problems, and I do not need a 3rd party to sanctify me in my endeavors.

 

[weressl]

I solve problems, and I do not need a 3rd party to sanctify me in my endeavors.

Aaaaah, judge, jury and executioner.

I guess you're Divinely appointed, need no verification by mere mortals.

 

[mivey]

Aaaaah, judge, jury and executioner.

I guess you're Divinely appointed, need no verification by mere mortals.

Certification does not always guarantee competence.

 

[wptski]

Certification does not always guarantee competence.

Neither does a license!

 

[skeshesh]

Certification does not always guarantee competence.

At least a ceritfication or licensing process shows you know something vs. nothing. There are very few guarantees in life in general.
But at least I can say pretty confidently that one of those few guarantees is that an entertaining discussion will follow if there's a post about harmonics/power quality savings on this forum.

 

[cschmid]

Certification does not always guarantee competence.

very true but at least you know they tried..

Neither does a license!

again they know enough to be dangerous

Greeting all,
I need some information regarding to

1- harmonic affects on transformers.

2- What is the solution for harmonic current?

1- Now back to the original question..What size are we talking..heat is #1 I would think..

2- Hmm all the energy efficient stuff I know produces harmonics..interesting concept, harmonics to save energy but yet it is a negative effect..

Wonder where we can go with this..

 

[brian john]

Aaaaah, judge, jury and executioner.

I guess you're Divinely appointed, need no verification by mere mortals.

You post over the years often show a disdain for electricians, yes as noted you the MIGHTY OZ, have the knowledge and wisdom that give many electricians a nasty opinion of the snooty look down your nose at us lowly mortal as we are only electricians., I bow to you superior intellect and am sorry I tried to add to a discussion you seem to know so much about. My apologies sir.

 

[PowerQualityDoctor]

very true but at least you know they tried..



again they know enough to be dangerous



1- Now back to the original question..What size are we talking..heat is #1 I would think..

2- Hmm all the energy efficient stuff I know produces harmonics..interesting concept, harmonics to save energy but yet it is a negative effect..

Wonder where we can go with this..

1- Heat and losses. The order depends on your ambient temperature...
2- Not all energy efficiency solutions create harmonics. Those who do need to be analyzed with respect to the level of harmonics pollution. Not doing this is huge mistake.

 

[cschmid]

you are correct not all do but yet the one that the power company promote do create harmonics..which in turn is a double edge sword. I do believe that people are conflicted in this whole energy conservation issue..to conserve cost lots of extra dollars upfront out of there pocket and the pay back is not there. It looks good on paper but in the real world the variables are extreme to calculate. So power quality and load balancing are both ignored. So how would you convince the general population that harmonics are an issue..

 

[PowerQualityDoctor]

So how would you convince the general population that harmonics are an issue..

I cannot convince the general population. I hardly convince the experts...

For residential consumers, harmonics are not much of concern. In such cases it is the utility's concern. I expect that in the future they will regulate the harmonics issue.

For medium and large consumers - it usually takes time to convince, but after they are convinced, they will spend any dollar to reduce the harmonics as the amount of losses due this issue is unbelievable.

 

[weressl]

You post over the years often show a disdain for electricians, yes as noted you the MIGHTY OZ, have the knowledge and wisdom that give many electricians a nasty opinion of the snooty look down your nose at us lowly mortal as we are only electricians., I bow to you superior intellect and am sorry I tried to add to a discussion you seem to know so much about. My apologies sir.

I only have intolerance for fools who:

1. Should know better,
2. Act like know more than they do,
3. Unwilling - not unable - to recognize that there is much more to the subject they are discussing.
4. Unwilling to learn.
5. Act unprofessionally and start talking about emotion, rather than the subject at hand.

Professional people stick to the subject and don't start talking about: oh, its insulting, demeaning, etc.

 

[mivey]

I only have intolerance for fools who:

1. Should know better,
2. Act like know more than they do,
3. Unwilling - not unable - to recognize that there is much more to the subject they are discussing.
4. Unwilling to learn.

I have noticed you don't cut much slack and tend to be blunt at times. In all fairness, I do find that you are more often correct than not. Now that I have softened the blow: Do you recognize that you are guilty of some of those same things?

Before you respond, I'll freely admit I have been guilty of some of those. I try to be self-aware but don't always succeed.

 

[weressl]

I have noticed you don't cut much slack and tend to be blunt at times. In all fairness, I do find that you are more often correct than not. Now that I have softened the blow: Do you recognize that you are guilty of some of those same things?

Before you respond, I'll freely admit I have been guilty of some of those. I try to be self-aware but don't always succeed.

Guilt would imply intentional wrongdoing and I would respectfully decline to accept such.

To err is human and that I claim to be.

 

[mivey]

Guilt would imply intentional wrongdoing and I would respectfully decline to accept such.

To err is human and that I claim to be.

So all who commit one of the four sins might not be elevated to fool status?