What's going on here?

[hbiss]

As many of you might know we had a bad snow storm here in the Southern NY area Thursday and Friday of last week. Wet, heavy snow. Lots of downed trees and lines.

Friends of my wife who live down the street call her on Friday AM to say they are without power. The story goes that a lamp bulb flashed and exploded, the lamp smoking almost starting a fire as their power went off. At the same time they see a flash then hear an "explosion" from outside. They call the fire department who respond. They find no fire and used a thermal imaging device. They turned the main breaker off in the old Zinsco panel and left.

Next day my wife tells me the story and my opinion is that a primary (12.5Kv around here) came down and crossed with the secondary distribution someplace. That's what the "explosion" and flash was and that's why the lamp burned. I mention that they will be very lucky if any of their electronics and appliances survived.

A day or so later the power company still hasn't gotten to them and out of curiosity I take a ride to see where their distribution comes from. A couple of blocks away I found a primary down with the top leg of the open wire secondaries burned and also lying on the ground.

So last night the power company finally gets to them. Their lineman probably working 24 hour shifts apparently put the lines back together and they are at the house. Seems they found that the meter electronics fried (we have RF remote reading meters here) but it still passed current. Friend says that the lineman didn't want to go into the house because of the dog so they asked the friend's husband to go turn the main on. He does and the panel starts burning, so he shuts it off. At that point my wife's friend calls and asks if she would ask me to come by and talk to the linemen, which I do.

Now I realize that these are linemen not electricians. I fill them in on how there was a 12.5Kv cross, that's why the meter was fried. I went in and looked at the panel. Without removing the cover I saw that the paint on the front cover was burned off and the plastic blanks and some breakers were melted or burned. At that point they were running a new drop and I asked them not to energize it- the customer has to have an electrician replace the service and do whatever else needed to be done, file for it and have it inspected. The lineman opted to leave the drop disconnected at the street, they left the old meter in the pan and bugged the new drop to the old service.

Since I no longer do electrical work I offered to call a friend of mine who is an EC to see if he can get there first thing in the AM. Husband is a bit of an odd ball and he refuses, he will get somebody else. OK. Sitting there in the cold and dark for the last five days wasn't enough. Now I figure he want's to shop around.

Well, he did get somebody else- another local EC. This guy tells the husband that he needs the power company to energize the old service before he can do anything. I assume he looked at the condition of the panel. I'm thinking that he is trying to avoid filing and an inspection. I hope the power company is smart enough to refuse.

-Hal

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yep!!!................

 

[shepelec]

Maybe he is burning all that money he thinks he saved.:roll:

 

[LarryFine]

Take pictures of everything right away!

 

[TOOL_5150]

around here, if you call to have the POCO de-energize a drop for anything other than swapping a meter, they need a signed electrical permit before they will re-energize.

~Matt

 

[mxslick]

They turned the main breaker off in the old Zinsco panel and left.

Reason enough to replace the service, am surprised it has a main.

And from the description it def sounds like a primary to secondary incident.

I would strongly urge the homeowner to have the EC megger ALL of the branch circuits as part of the repair. Odds are very high that some of the interior wiring is damaged.

Have them take pics of EVERYTHING that was damaged and be ready to fight the POCO over the damage.

 

[cadpoint]

Reason enough to replace the service, am surprised it has a main.

And from the description it def sounds like a primary to secondary incident.

I would strongly urge the homeowner to have the EC megger ALL of the branch circuits as part of the repair. Odds are very high that some of the interior wiring is damaged.

Have them take pics of EVERYTHING that was damaged and be ready to fight the POCO over the damage.

Besides all the correct things said; what does the HO have any relief from an act of God, one would almost think that will be the auto response from the POCO, yes/no!

It makes me want to go read my own policy in respects to being an A.O.G!

 

[charlietuna]

I'm with Larry, Did you take pictures of everything for them ?? Sounds like the power company's responsible if you have the proof ??? I had a friend that came home from work and half his electronics were burnt up--Mico-Dishwasher-TV's-VCR-etc.. He called me and i went over and inspected his service. He had already called the power company and they told him to "call an electrician since his house must have been hit by lightning" ??? The power was "on" and the panel interior looked normal. Then i looked at his ground and i noticed all the insulation was freshly melted off the ground conductor. I pulled the meter and it was melted all the way back to the ground/neutral lug! About this time one of his neighbors walks up and asks if he had heard about the fire in a neighbor's kitchen?? Well, the power company's subcontractor replaced the pad mount transformer and got the wires mixed up and energized the neutral and caused a fire in another house! But they didn't say a word to the others being fed from this transformer!!! Of course, as soon as my friend called the power company and explained that he knew they were the cause--they had an insurance adjuster out there withing two hours. They payed for everything--no questions asked!!

 

[satcom]

Am I missing something here, but why would a homeowner contact the utility, for a claim, their homeowners insurance, should adjust the claim and if the utility is at fault they will fight the claim.

 

[hbiss]

Did you take pictures of everything for them ??

I would have been happy to, but when the husband said that he would get his own EC as far as I was concerned I did all I was going to. The husband doesn't get along with his wife and it was the wife's idea to call me so I wasn't going to get involved in something like that. My gut feeling is that the husband is the one that doesn't want an inspection hence not going with an EC he knows will insist on playing by the rules.

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

Am I missing something here, but why would a homeowner contact the utility, for a claim, their homeowners insurance, should adjust the claim and if the utility is at fault they will fight the claim.

If the POCO is voluntarily handling it, I'd pick that over having to deal with even my own insurance company any day. Save that claim for anything the POCO denies.

 

[mxslick]

Besides all the correct things said; what does the HO have any relief from an act of God, one would almost think that will be the auto response from the POCO, yes/no!

It makes me want to go read my own policy in respects to being an A.O.G!

Sure the POCO will try to claim that, but in many cases of downed lines, there is usually some other factor within the POCO's control, such as untrimmed tree limbs, prior damage to crossarms or insulators that wasn't repaired, or even accidents caused by a repair crew.

POCO is always the first line of responsibility when failure of their equipment, no matter what the cause, causes damage to customer's property.

 

[mivey]

Sure the POCO will try to claim that, but in many cases of downed lines, there is usually some other factor within the POCO's control, such as untrimmed tree limbs, prior damage to crossarms or insulators that wasn't repaired, or even accidents caused by a repair crew.

POCO is always the first line of responsibility when failure of their equipment, no matter what the cause, causes damage to customer's property.

They are generally not liable for equipment failure unless you can prove (sometimes gross) negligence.

Some samples:

Neither the customer nor the Company shall be responsible for damage to the machinery, apparatus, appliances, or other property of the other caused by storm, lightning or by defects in or failure of the machinery, apparatus or appliances of the one suffering such damage from such causes;

The Company will use reasonable diligence at all times to provide continuous service at the agreed nominal voltage, and shall not be liable to the Customer for complete or partial failure or interruption of service, or for fluctuations in voltage, resulting from causes beyond its control or through the ordinary negligence of its employees, servants or agents. The Company shall not be liable for any act or omission caused directly or indirectly by strikes, labor troubles, accident, litigation, shutdowns for repairs or adjustments, interference by Federal, State or Municipal governments, acts of God or other causes beyond its control.

The Company shall not be responsible for any damage or injury to the buildings, motors, apparatus, or other property of the Customer due to lightning, defects in wiring or other electrical installations, defective equipment or other cause not due to the negligence of the Company.

Neither the Company nor the Customer will be liable to the other for any act, omission, or circumstances (including, but not limited to, the Company?s inability to provide electric service) due to the following:
a. flood, rain, wind, storm, lightning, earthquake, fire landslide, washout or other acts of the elements;
b. accident or explosion;
c. war, rebellion, civil disturbance, mobs, riot, blockade or other act of the public enemy;
d. acts of God;
e. interference of civil and/or military authorities;
f. strikes, lockouts, or other labor difficulties;
g. vandalism, sabotage, or malicious mischief;
h. usurpation of power, or the laws, rules, regulations, or orders made or adopted by any regulatory or other governmental agency or body (federal, state or local) having jurisdiction of any of the business or affairs of the Company or the Customer, direct or indirect;
i. breakage or accidents to equipment or facilities;
j. lack, limitation or loss of electrical or fuel supply; or
k. any other casuality or cause beyond the reasonable control of the Company or the Customer, whether or not specifically provided herein and without limitation to the types enumerated, and which by exercise of due diligence the Company or the Customer is unable to overcome.

 

[fondini]

he probably figures there will be more money to be made on the fire rebuild than just a service change

 

[mxslick]

mivey, while it is true that most, if not all POCO's have that same type of disclaimer, there have been many cases wheer the POCO was still found negligent despite the initiation of an event being "Act of God" nature. For example, our local POCO paid out thousands in claims because of an incident I covered in THIS THREAD.

One reason they were found liable stems from the fact that despite that incident being the second major failure of its kind, they still do not have that lateral fused. :roll:

I have been waiting for the repeat performance to happen...

 

[Den]

Sadly, I am sure that the h.o. will get nowhere with the poco. The only time our co that I worked for (REC) insurance co would pay was if we had been there and done some work and a problem developed within a "reasonable" time afterward. They were not responsible for normal age and deteriation or acts of God. I would often say that a problem was on "our" side to keep somebody from getting a charge, considerring the circumstances at the time. If the hi voltage did come in thru the sec. it could have gone all thru the house and appliances so everything needs checked.

 

[mivey]

mivey, while it is true that most, if not all POCO's have that same type of disclaimer, there have been many cases wheer the POCO was still found negligent despite the initiation of an event being "Act of God" nature. For example, our local POCO paid out thousands in claims because of an incident I covered in THIS THREAD.

One reason they were found liable stems from the fact that despite that incident being the second major failure of its kind, they still do not have that lateral fused. :roll:

I have been waiting for the repeat performance to happen...

Fusing the lateral may not have been the solution (assuming they implemented one). Seems to me like a failure to have an up-to-date sectionalizing study. It happens from time-to-time, but now that they have had an incident, I would think there is no excuse for ignoring it.

 

[wawireguy]

Since I no longer do electrical work I offered to call a friend of mine who is an EC to see if he can get there first thing in the AM. Husband is a bit of an odd ball and he refuses, he will get somebody else. OK. Sitting there in the cold and dark for the last five days wasn't enough. Now I figure he want's to shop around.

Well, he did get somebody else- another local EC. This guy tells the husband that he needs the power company to energize the old service before he can do anything. I assume he looked at the condition of the panel. I'm thinking that he is trying to avoid filing and an inspection. I hope the power company is smart enough to refuse.

-Hal

You can lead a horse to water..

 

[mivey]

You can lead a horse to water..

...but a pencil must be lead.