3-position yoke-mount wall switch -- exist?

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lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
Does a three position standard yoke-mount wall switch exist? I could have sworn I've seen something like this before.

I'd like to specify some motion detecting lights and give the Owner the option of having them completely off, always on or motion detecting without providing any fancy controls.

Thanks.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Does a three position standard yoke-mount wall switch exist? I could have sworn I've seen something like this before.

I'd like to specify some motion detecting lights and give the Owner the option of having them completely off, always on or motion detecting without providing any fancy controls.

Thanks.



Let's say a switch does exist for this, can your light do that?
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
Sure. Why can't it?

Wire 120VAC to the switch. From position 1 (on) wire to the lamp only. From position 2 (motion detect) wire to the motion detect unit which is connected to the lamp (same point as position 1). Do not connect anything to position 3 (off).
 

jumper

Senior Member
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have seen DPDT toggle switches that mount in regular switch box (center position is off) they have a mechanical stop that in order to go from the up position to the down position you have to stop at the center position and then push it again to continue moving it down.

They are intended to be used as a manual transfer switch.

If i remember correctly they cost around $80 at least 10-12 years ago.

another idea is to have a single pole switch as a "master on-off" and a three way as the selection of "hand - auto".

If single yoke is needed they do make a single pole/three way combination on a single yoke.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I'd like to specify some motion detecting lights and give the Owner the option of having them completely off, always on or motion detecting without providing any fancy controls.
I did this a short while ago with a Leviton 5685-2 Decora Plus. The homeowner wanted the exact feature set, at the switch, that you are describing. He also needed the "look" of the Decora style. I haven't searched for the equivalent in a toggle.

Leviton calls this a "maintained contact single pole double throw center off" switch.

15144.jpg


This is the Leviton catalog page.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Sure. Why can't it?

Wire 120VAC to the switch. From position 1 (on) wire to the lamp only. From position 2 (motion detect) wire to the motion detect unit which is connected to the lamp (same point as position 1). Do not connect anything to position 3 (off).



Why can't it?


I will be willing to bet you're gonna find yourself going through motion detectors pretty often.

The older motions with real relays would have worked fine with your setup, because when you switched the light to lamp only, it is BACKFEEDING a set of NO contacts, which doesn't hurt anything. BUT IN YOUR CASE,,,,,your backfeeding a solid state relay, which the relay does not like. It may work for a while, but I guarantee it will be a problem on most cheap, solid state motion detectors. Unless the light was designed to do what you're doing. You have the same problem when using 2 motions to start one set of lights. One backfeeding the other damages it.
 
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mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
What doesn't it "like" and how does it damage the relay?

Aren't we talking about alternating current?



Backfeeding a solid state relay is not good for it. With a bistable relay, contact position is directectly proportional to coil drive waveform. Which when pushed through diodes backwards is not very pretty, thus damaging to coil drive
 

realolman

Senior Member
Backfeeding a solid state relay is not good for it. With a bistable relay, contact position is directectly proportional to coil drive waveform. Which when pushed through diodes backwards is not very pretty, thus damaging to coil drive

I don't think I'm buyin that explanation. Could you explain that in electrical or electronic teminology without the "not very pretty", "good for it", "coil drive" or "contact position" stuff.

contact position is directectly proportional to coil drive waveform

That sounds like baloney to me.:)
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
I don't think I'm buyin that explanation. Could you explain that in electrical or electronic teminology without the "not very pretty", "good for it", "coil drive" or "contact position" stuff.



That sounds like baloney to me.:)




Inside of the light that is being backfed builds up heat. Here's what happens to the electronics. An SCR is simply a p-n-p-n structure with a gate terminal . We can break the structure down as back-to-back transistors, one p-n-p, the other n-p-n. With that simplification, we can see that temperature analysis of the bipolar transistor extends logically to the SCR structure.

It is a well known empirical fact that leakage current approximately doubles with every 10? C increase in temperature.1 In a bipolar transistor, this increase in leakage is accentuated by the "transistor action" of the device. This can be explained by using an n-p-n transistor as an example. As we increase the temperature, more and more electrons are able to jump the barrier from the emitter to the base. This further biases the base region with respect to the emitter and collector, causing an increase in collector current. In fact, a transistor can be turned on simply by applying high temperature - sufficient leakage current can be generated to trigger the transistor action.

This discussion extends to the SCR, which is nothing more than two bipolar transistors driving each other. Any effect felt by the bipolar transistor is only magnified when discussing the SCR. The effect is not additive, it is multiplicative.

There is another temperature-related phenomenon we must point out: as we increase temperature, diode voltage decreases at an approximate rate of 2 mV/?C.2 Therefore, a transistor in the on state will have a tendency to not only stay on at high temperature, but to conduct even more fully; i.e., the barrier between p- and n-type regions is reduced even more.
The result of these two phenomena is that the bipolar transistor has a negative temperature coefficient; the higher the temperature, the higher the collector current at a given base drive.
Let's now extend the discussion to the SCR, specifically in Solid State devices. The S742 uses two SCRs in the output; thus, it can only be utilized in AC applications. This is because the only way to prevent these particular SCRs from conducting once they are turned on is to reverse the voltage across their terminals. This is dictated by the output of the application. In a DC application, once the SCR is turned on, there is no way of turning it off. Under DC, the SCR never experiences the reverse voltage condition across its terminals necessary to prevent conduction.

An SCR in the off state will tend to turn on and stay on (latch) at high temperatures. Of course, in the S742 one SCR will always be non-conducting because of the reverse voltage on the output. But the other will tend to turn on even without an input signal because of the above considerations.

In SSO's MOSFET-output devices, the driver consists of 14 series diodes. These diodes generate sufficient voltage to drive the gate of the output MOSFET, allowing conduction.

These results support theoretical expectations; namely, SCR-output devices can be expected to fail short , while MOSFET-output devices can be expected to fail open.
 

realolman

Senior Member
That might all be well and good, and I'm only going to answer you to tell you that you did not baffle me with BS.,

Anytime I hear anyone talk about backfeed doing this or that, my B.S. detector goes off, and this case is no exception.

What you have written may have some merit in another discussion , but has no relevence to the OP's original post or your previous posts about the switches, the backfeed, the motion detector, or your previous statements about the backfeeding of the solid state relays contained in the motion detector..

You can try to write like some sort of instructor if you like, but your statements about backfeeding not being good for solid state relays and the coil contact position being proportional to the coil drive wave form are still baloney.

Trying to cover it up with that post is just baloney squared.
Give it up.:)
 
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mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
That's all well and good, and I'm only going to answer you to tell you that you did not baffle me with BS.,

Anytime I hear anyone talk about backfeed doing this or that, my B.S. detector goes off, and this case is no exception.

What you have written may have some merit in another discussion , but has no relevence to the OP's original post or your previous posts about the switches, the backfeed, the motion detector, or your previous statements about the "backfeeding" of the solid state relays contained in the motion detector..

You can try to write like some sort of instructor if you like, but your statements about backfeeding not being good for solid state relays and the coil contact position being proportional to the coil drive wave form are still baloney.

Trying to cover it up with that post is just baloney squared.
Give it up.:)




You are nothing more than an a hard headed old man. YOU ASKED for electrical or electronic terminology,,,,,,then bash me for it. I do give up,,,,,he can installl his little heart out, he'll be the one replacing motion detectors every 3-4 months. Feel free
 
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