homemade tester, strange results

[jetlag]

I often use a homemade tester to help locate an open circuit, i run an extension cord from a good outlet over to one of the dead outlets or lights. will a bulb tester i then test from hot on the dead circuit to neutral on extension cord . IF dead i know the hot is prob open . So i test from neutral on the dead to hot on the cord to make sure neutral is good. At this point if hot is dead i use a short extension cord with a male plug on each end to back feed current into dead circuit. Some or all of the dead recep or lights usually come back on , most of the time the open circuit is either in first outlet nearest the panel that does not come on . The problem is twice when I have done this it trips the breaker in the panel when i connect my device. How can that be when I plug into an outlet with no hot ? How does the current get back to panel when the hot is open between there. One time when it happened I moved the breaker so it would be on the same leg as the extension cord and the breaker didnt trip . But yesterday i had one would trip no matter which lug the breaker is on. How can that be how does my current from the test cord get by the open hot to get to panel. I still found the open in a lighting outlet, where i said it would be, but the breaker had to stay triped for test. usually i can cut breaker on an off to see what is fed from panel and what needs the back feed. in between those two is the open

 

[cpal]

disconnect the branch circuit wires from the neutral and the breaker,

get a signal tracer (short change) a
and throw that widow maker away

 

[steve66]

I had no idea why your breaker was tripping until I typed all this.

But it seems like you could get the same results (assuming you have receptacles with grounds) by using one of the cheap plug in testers.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide05-08.html

They have three lights - no lights on means no hot connected. One light is for no neutral. And these also check for open grounds, and wrong polarity on the outlet.

And they would be much safer.

And you could also still check each outlet back toward the panel to find the approx. locaton of the open.

Now I think I may know why you are tripping breakers. I'll bet its due to a miswired receptacle - one with the hot on the neutral terminal, and vice versa.

Steve

 

[jetlag]

disconnect the branch circuit wires from the neutral and the breaker,

get a signal tracer (short change) a
and throw that widow maker away

I did disconnect the wires and they were all dead to the ground, and i will keep the widow maker thank you , 20 years of use has not made a widow , and only twice has it triped the breaker. You have to respect hot lines weather from the panel or from and extension cord . I dont do any work untill the tester is removed. you missed my question, how did the current get by the open hot to conflict with the panel hot ?

 

[jap]

Maybe you made the connection, in the break,whenever you plugged your tester in,and since the 2 circuits were on different phases,it went phase to phase and tripped.
When you moved the breaker to the same phase it didnt see any difference in potential and did not trip.

 

[e57]

I did disconnect the wires and they were all dead to the ground, and i will keep the widow maker thank you , 20 years of use has not made a widow , and only twice has it triped the breaker. You have to respect hot lines weather from the panel or from and extension cord . I dont do any work untill the tester is removed. you missed my question, how did the current get by the open hot to conflict with the panel hot ?

Regardless of the question - the means is questionable... And difficult to advocate - since I personally advocate for the devil himself - I too find the ground on which the question stands beyond professional orthodoxy... :roll::roll::roll::roll: Oh - and unsafe....

The breaker tripping means (you might be) you have completed a direct short either to grounding or grounded conductors from an energized ungrounded conductor - that part is pretty clear - how that happens in any or every situation is a matter for the little gray cells. I often if not on paper - draw a mental schematic or line diagram of the circuit. But in doing so, I don't go hunting for an open by creating a short - or any other jumper cable type method.

The line diagram method is really easy.... Draw a simple floor plan of the area on a piece of paper or card board box - what have you.... Add in the outlets in their general location... Then test the outlets in the area and/or the cables or conductors of where they might go... Then write:
? N where I find a hot and neutral.
? where I find a hot alone.
N where I find a neutral alone.

? N is what is required for the circuit to work - and ironically looks a lot like "ON" doesn't it.

Then I shut the circuit "OFF" and then confirm it is "OFF" before disconnecting any conductors - and may check continuity between each outlet - I may use an extension cord to do so, to ease checking remotely - but mine has a male and female end - like it came from the store - no extra modification required...

After drawing where the cables go - I usually get a better idea of where that ? or N might be missing... To get the circuit back - "ON"

 

[One-eyed Jack]

I did disconnect the wires and they were all dead to the ground, and i will keep the widow maker thank you , 20 years of use has not made a widow , and only twice has it triped the breaker. You have to respect hot lines weather from the panel or from and extension cord . I dont do any work untill the tester is removed. you missed my question, how did the current get by the open hot to conflict with the panel hot ?

Any time you back feed into a circuit of questionable integrity you can and should expect bad things to happen. While e57's method seems a little more complicated and time consuming it is inherently safer. If you can trace the circuit;ie source to outlet to outlet the problem is almost always in the last working outlet. Any tester will do and it is all you will need.

 

[e57]

While e57's method seems a little more complicated and time consuming it is inherently safer.

When I'm getting paid... :roll: I get paid by the hour... When I get home - I get home in one piece. Hopefully without killing a curious dog or child in the process...

(I inadvertently shocked the bejesus out of someones dog once who found an open outlet interesting... And - Oh yes a waitress who tapped me on the shoulder...)

 

[growler]

I often use a homemade tester to help locate an open circuit, i run an extension cord from a good outlet over to one of the dead outlets or lights. will a bulb tester i then test from hot on the dead circuit to neutral on extension cord . IF dead i know the hot is prob open . So i test from neutral on the dead to hot on the cord to make sure neutral is good. At this point if hot is dead i use a short extension cord with a male plug on each end to back feed current into dead circuit. Some or all of the dead recep or lights usually come back on , most of the time the open circuit is either in first outlet nearest the panel that does not come on . The problem is twice when I have done this it trips the breaker in the panel when i connect my device. How can that be when I plug into an outlet with no hot ? How does the current get back to panel when the hot is open between there. One time when it happened I moved the breaker so it would be on the same leg as the extension cord and the breaker didnt trip . But yesterday i had one would trip no matter which lug the breaker is on. How can that be how does my current from the test cord get by the open hot to get to panel. I still found the open in a lighting outlet, where i said it would be, but the breaker had to stay triped for test. usually i can cut breaker on an off to see what is fed from panel and what needs the back feed. in between those two is the open

When you were doing all this testing on the dead circuit did you check to see if the hot, neural or ground was shorted togather? Normally it would trip a breaker but since it's open before it gets to the panel it could very easily be shorted.

When a hot wire comes loose it very often touches the side of a grounded metal box. Now if you back feed then there is a return path to the panel but that circuit is still dead.


Edit to add. when a breaker trips the circuit found a return path it's up to you to figure out how it found this path. NASA we do have a problem here.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

When I'm getting paid... :roll: I get paid by the hour... When I get home - I get home in one piece. Hopefully without killing a curious dog or child in the process...

(I inadvertently shocked the bejesus out of someones dog once who found an open outlet interesting... And - Oh yes a waitress who tapped me on the shoulder...)

Didn't take him long to look at it!!!!!!

 

[e57]

Didn't take him long to look at it!!!!!!

The dog was warned - the waitress missed the meeting... Both lived thankfully.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Keeping you away from my dog LOL

 

[jetlag]

Maybe you made the connection, in the break,whenever you plugged your tester in,and since the 2 circuits were on different phases,it went phase to phase and tripped.
When you moved the breaker to the same phase it didnt see any difference in potential and did not trip.

yea I knew thats why it didnt tripped so I moved to same phase , so i removed the hot wire from the breaker and checked it to ground, nothing it was dead with the backfeed connected , still dont know why breaker triped

 

[jetlag]

I had no idea why your breaker was tripping until I typed all this.

But it seems like you could get the same results (assuming you have receptacles with grounds) by using one of the cheap plug in testers.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide05-08.html

They have three lights - no lights on means no hot connected. One light is for no neutral. And these also check for open grounds, and wrong polarity on the outlet.

And they would be much safer.

And you could also still check each outlet back toward the panel to find the approx. locaton of the open.

Now I think I may know why you are tripping breakers. I'll bet its due to a miswired receptacle - one with the hot on the neutral terminal, and vice versa.

Steve

I have those testers and know how they work but I prefer my way with a light bulb tester. It puts a load on the circuit and wont read phantom voltage

 

[jetlag]

I gave everyone a chance

I gave everyone a chance

The dog was warned - the waitress missed the meeting... Both lived thankfully.

Well nobody guessed it , the open was just loose enough not to make connection, but when I back fed from a different phase it put 240 on the loose connection and was enough to jump the bad connection. But what do I know Im just a dumb old school using a light bulb tester

 

[e57]

Keeping you away from my dog LOL

For the record - I wass no where near the dog - he just walked over and stuck his nose in the hole in the wall - with a live outlet dangling out of it... He seemed real surprised...

Well nobody guessed it , the open was just loose enough not to make connection, but when I back fed from a different phase it put 240 on the loose connection and was enough to jump the bad connection. But what do I know Im just a dumb old school using a light bulb tester

I'm not sure anyone saw this thread as a quiz??? But I'll speak for myself. Not so much the tactic of the troubleshoot - but the method. On the employer side things - many would sack you for the liabilty aspect of having a double ended male cord to do it. Regardless of what tester you use. I very often will wire a temp bulb into something to act as a tester - I keep a 1/2 dozen on my dash - but the connection is capped. And in a situation where you in an act of 'discovery' to figure out the layout of a circuit - a jumper cable like yours could lead to injury or property damage. It's just plain not safe, and no one can advocate it.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

We can't stop you from risking lives is the message i see here. That method could end up doing many things including burning up appliances. If it has already had 2 shocks maybe it will have more. Lets hope they do not end up with a death.

 

[220/221]

I often use a homemade tester to help locate an open circuit, i run an extension cord from a good outlet over to one of the dead outlets or lights. will a bulb tester i then test from hot on the dead circuit to neutral on extension cord . IF dead i know the hot is prob open . So i test from neutral on the dead to hot on the cord to make sure neutral is good. At this point if hot is dead i use a short extension cord with a male plug on each end to back feed current into dead circuit. Some or all of the dead recep or lights usually come back on , most of the time the open circuit is either in first outlet nearest the panel that does not come on . The problem is twice when I have done this it trips the breaker in the panel when i connect my device. How can that be when I plug into an outlet with no hot ? How does the current get back to panel when the hot is open between there. One time when it happened I moved the breaker so it would be on the same leg as the extension cord and the breaker didnt trip . But yesterday i had one would trip no matter which lug the breaker is on. How can that be how does my current from the test cord get by the open hot to get to panel. I still found the open in a lighting outlet, where i said it would be, but the breaker had to stay triped for test. usually i can cut breaker on an off to see what is fed from panel and what needs the back feed. in between those two is the open

Am I the only one who cannot read a long ass "paragraph" like that? I get about two lines in and get lost.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If i was your boss or foreman i would take my klines and destroy it. Then would simply tell you next time i see it in your box that your fired. If your smart enough to use it your smart enough to know why you shouldn't.

 

[Chris6245]

Hummm...Wonder what the fine from OSHA would be for having a cord like that on a job? If I ever cought one of my guys using something like that they would be walking home because they wouldn't be employed anymore and non employees don't drive company trucks. :grin: