using scrap wire

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growler

growler

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Atlanta,GA
zog said:
Came across this recall for the splicers out there.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08367.html

I also attended a seminar in Denver this weekend with one of North Americas leading experts on electrical failure forensics, so I had to ask about LV splices. He said failed splices were a very common cause of many of the fire investigations he had done.
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That recall is for GB "Butt Splices" and you don't see electricians useing very many small butt splices. The crimping tools and it's use will have a lot to do with a small butt splice.

If you have ever done any work in the field you will see people put two wires togather and put the wire nut on with about three quick turns and call it a done deal. I have taken a box cover off and have the wire nuts just fall off. These are not good splices.

You should ask the correct question. It's poor splices that are causing all the failures and fires and not properly made splices. I agree that if a contractor lets a green helper or apprentice make splices in a range circuit without proper training and never checks them then they may not be safe.


This is the same logic that causes people to think guns are unsafe. An idiot leaves a loaded gun on the coffee table for kids to play with and everyone thinks guns are unsafe when it's really idiots that are not safe.
A gun locked away in a gun safe is perfectly safe if the owner in properly trained and understands the need for gun safety.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Retired Electrical Contractor
I honestly have not read thru all these pages but you can probably reduce the amount of waste by buying 1000' reels. The short piece go for good bucks at the scrap yard right now. :) You probably would do better that way then spending the time splice the stuff.
 
S

satcom

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
Just a bit. You can't wirenut HV. :cool:
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I can remember a contractor that took on a HV job replacing cable, he had no idea of the type of cable required or how to terminate it, the result was a massive fire with one month of down time for the company production, and a pile of legal expenses, the good new was he came in low on the bid.
 
S

stevenje

Senior Member
Location
Yachats Oregon
growler said:
If you have ever done any work in the field you will see people put two wires togather and put the wire nut on with about three quick turns and call it a done deal. I have taken a box cover off and have the wire nuts just fall off. These are not good splices.
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I work on a job that we had the opposite problem. One of the "journeyman" decided that he would use one of those time saving wirenut tighteners that you put in a drill. He over torqued the wire nuts so bad that it screwed the wires right through the end of the wirenut. We didn't find out about this problem until we turned on the breakers and the hot wires now sticking out of the end of the wirenut grounded out in the boxes. What a mess. It took the better part of the day on and off a lift, checking every connection that we thought he had made. So much for time saving.
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
peter d said:
Does anyone else find the comparison between splicing MV and HV cables to splicing romex or MC cable just a bit laughable? :)
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They are comparable. The more splices made, the higher the chances of a failure become. The chance of failure will also depend on the quality of materials used and the workmanship of the splice.

I spent time talking with a forensics expert, the guy they insurance company calls when an electrical failure causes propery damage or injuries and he said there is not question about splices on LV systems being common failure points. The respones I get here are "well that was a material failure" or "it depends on how good of a job was done" which is exactly my point. Unecessary splices in any electrical system, in this case to use up some scrap wire is "Unprofessional", and that is what this discussion is all about.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
zog said:
They are comparable. The more splices made, the higher the chances of a failure become.
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The more you do anything increases the chance of failure. The more service calls you do increases the chance that you are going to meet a nut case customer with a shotgun having a bad hair day. When you meet this guy the failure is going to be catastrophics.

Every time you go out in your yard you increase the chance of snake bite so stay in the house.

Just to say the more you do something the more chance for failure is meaningless without some type of real numbers showing the added increase in probabilities. So I have increased the probabilities from one in a trillion all the way up to 2 in a trillion. ( I'm worried now ).:grin:
 
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peter d

peter d

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Location
New England
zog said:
They are comparable.
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No, there is absolutely no comparison between splicing #14, 12, and 10 conductors with wirenuts to splicing MV and HV cables with complicated splicing methods. They are in different universes.

The more splices made, the higher the chances of a failure become.
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How many splices are there in a nuke plant? Probably a few million if you count every single termination and junction point. Lots of potential failure points there. But chances are they were done by qualified electrical professionals who know how to make a splice or termination properly.



The chance of failure will also depend on the quality of materials used and the workmanship of the splice.
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Yes, and water is wet and the sky is blue. Once again, we're electrical professionals, not DIYers. We make our living to properly install electrical equipment and make splices to last a lifetime trouble-free.
 
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zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
peter d said:
No, there is absolutely no comparison between splicing #14, 12, and 10 conductors with wirenuts to splicing MV and HV cables with complicated splicing methods. They are in different universes.
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They are very different but the comparision is the same, the more splices, the more potential failure points.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
zog said:
They are very different but the comparision is the same, the more splices, the more potential failure points.
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From your profile I can see that you are an E-navy Nuke. I wasn't in the Navy but I did spend a few years working around "nuke" weapons systems. We didn't splice anything. But there is a heck of a lot of difference between having "nuke" warheads and high explosives and more tons of rocket fuel than I care to think about all around and having a clothes dryer explode on you ( wait a clothes dryer doesn't explode it just stops working, no big deal ).

Making a splice in a junction box with a cover is considered a sufficient safety measure where fire is concerned. If a homeowner can't get his clothes dry on time then the world doesn't end, we don't even go to war.

You have at least 200 splices in a house and none of these is mission critical. You want to look at the number of splices in a fire alarm system for a large commercial or industrial project. Hear any bells????
 
jumper

jumper

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Location
3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
zog said:
The point to me is not the splicing really, the issue I have is selling a job based on material costs for bew wire and then using a bunch of scrap to do the job. To me that is underhanded and far from professional. I suppose you do not chage the customer for new wire when using scrap? Do they gat a "scrap discount" or do you just pocket the money they paid for new wire?
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I am not an EC nor do I work for an EC. I work at a college. I save them money when I can.

Still, I have no problem with an EC splicing good wire/cable if it's done correctly, and with common sense as to placement of the junction. I do not see it as unprofessional or underhanded, I see it as good business sense without any compromise in safety.

I would hope there would be some insulation testing done after such a job.
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When I can, yes. I use that Fluke 1507 my boss bought me after you helped me with that GE 400amp 480v breaker problem.
 
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