live panelboards

[teco]

Hi,

Does the NEC address working on live panels and/or live energized equipment and circuits anywhere within the code? I do not mean working space or arc flash. I'm asking about working on energized circuits and equipment without shutting down or locking out the voltage. Does the NEC prohibit this at all?
Not asking about OSHA and others, but specifically the NEC?

Also, in reference to the OHSA regulations, how do some of you approach a large manufacturing operation with worldwide data centers and 24/7 operating shifts etc, and tell them you need to shut down their main services to run more raceways out of the switchgear and shut down again for each wire pull. The shut down doesn't necessarily create a larger or different hazard. Just dollars lost and interruption and inconvenience to the company. What do some of you say to your customers when faced with this situation?

 

[petersonra]

NEC (NFPA70) does not.

This is addressed by OSHA and NFPA70E.

 

[teco]

Thank you, The NEC does not. That is my conclusion also.

 

[zog]

Thank you, The NEC does not. That is my conclusion also.

Yeah, the US Tax code dosent say anything about it either, it is about as relevant. The NEC has nothing to do with electrical safe work practices. You need to follow the 70E and OSHA rules for working on or near energized equipment.

 

[iwire]

how do some of you approach a large manufacturing operation with worldwide data centers and 24/7 operating shifts etc, and tell them you need to shut down their main services to run more raceways out of the switchgear and shut down again for each wire pull. The shut down doesn't necessarily create a larger or different hazard. Just dollars lost and interruption and inconvenience to the company. What do some of you say to your customers when faced with this situation?

We follow the rules and most manufacturing facilities we have worked for are already aware of the rules and expect them to be followed.

 

[jim dungar]

What do some of you say to your customers when faced with this situation?

I tell them that a planned outage always costs less than an unplanned one.

It seems like they do not trust their 'backup/redundant power' systems. What do they do when the utility goes down during a storm?

 

[teco]

Yeah, the US Tax code dosent say anything about it either, it is about as relevant. The NEC has nothing to do with electrical safe work practices. You need to follow the 70E and OSHA rules for working on or near energized equipment.

Thanks, if I have a question about the tax code, I'll ask my accountant. Also I beg to differ with you, as I believe the NEC is all about designing and utilizing electricity safely through work practices. My inquiry was to help to provide proper information to another, that the NEC does not delve to deeply into installer safety. Other than working space, accessibility, etc. I use the forum to ask opinions of other professionals before given my opinion to others when its ask for.

 

[teco]

Thanks Jim,
That's a great way to make the point, and also very true. The company I'm speaking of is in the process of upgrading their back up systems, ironically this is part of the reason for the original question.

 

[teco]

Iwire Thanx, I hear that, we follow the rules also. Sometime I have to convince a CEO, CFO, or other white collars of these rules because sometimes it goes to that level when involving $$$$. Some companies we work for have internal H&S rules that allow live work of this nature under certain conditions they believe are OSHA compliant. Its very hard to convince them that their internal rules are still governed by OSHA and other agencies and may not be compliant. They have in-house staffs that operate through what they believe are loopholes in the rules and its hard bring them around in an easy manner so we don't lose the work to others who may not take issue with it. That is why I wanted to ask others how they present a multi shut down situation.

 

[hillbilly1]

Iwire Thanx, I hear that, we follow the rules also. Sometime I have to convince a CEO, CFO, or other white collars of these rules because sometimes it goes to that level when involving $$$$. Some companies we work for have internal H&S rules that allow live work of this nature under certain conditions they believe are OSHA compliant. Its very hard to convince them that their internal rules are still governed by OSHA and other agencies and may not be compliant. They have in-house staffs that operate through what they believe are loopholes in the rules and its hard bring them around in an easy manner so we don't lose the work to others who may not take issue with it. That is why I wanted to ask others how they present a multi shut down situation.

I have found it is middle and lower management that usually bucks it. Upper management usually knows the risks and cost of unintended down time.

 

[teco]

I have found it is middle and lower management that usually bucks it. Upper management usually knows the risks and cost of unintended down time.

Exactly what I'm up against. You nailed it. Its hard when middle management bucks the issues and you do not have the direct ear of the higher ups.

 

[Ruff-N]

Who is looking out for me?

Who is looking out for me?

Exactly what I'm up against. You nailed it. Its hard when middle management bucks the issues and you do not have the direct ear of the higher ups.

IMO for many years even up to today, many companies big and small take for granted the seriuosness of arc flash, and somtimes we as individuals are our own worse enemies. The way i see it, when it comes to work site saftey I am looking out for me. So if a company is asking anyone to "work the job anyway" and there are safety issues that an individual has brought up and they ignore or "buck" the issue, its the indivudual who has to suffer the consequences for his own actions, YOU are making a life or death desicion, YOU will suffer because YOU made the wrong descion. "But my job is on the line" You might say, so be it, if you lose your job becuse you refused to work a job that has safety concerns and no one is there to assist in correcting these issues, that company/job is not worth you getting burned up or losing your life over, fire me GOOD RIDDANCE, see you in court. I'm looking out for me!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Also I beg to differ with you, as I believe the NEC is all about designing and utilizing electricity safely through work practices. ...

The NEC is only about the minimum installation requirements for a reasonably safe installation. There is nothing in the NEC that covers electrical work practices.

 

[zog]

Thanks, if I have a question about the tax code, I'll ask my accountant. Also I beg to differ with you, as I believe the NEC is all about designing and utilizing electricity safely through work practices. My inquiry was to help to provide proper information to another, that the NEC does not delve to deeply into installer safety. Other than working space, accessibility, etc. I use the forum to ask opinions of other professionals before given my opinion to others when its ask for.

You are missing the point completely, the NEC is nto about safe work practices, which is the only reason your question is not addressed. The NEC is called the NFPA 70, which has several suplemental documents for other than installation concerns such as maintenence of those systems (NFPA 70B) and safety for working with those systems (NFPA 70E). I have a feeling you are just trying to get an answer you want, regarless of it being correct or not.

 

[paul]

Have them sign a waiver that releases you of any liability of accidents or cost of down time that could happen by working it live. It should also shift the liability to them if anyone gets hurt during this process, because this is the way THEY wish to proceed. The waiver must be signed before work commences.

Then add into the job the cost of your 40/cal suits, headgear, tools, etc.

Anyone try to work while geared up in all that crap!? Talk about difficult. It's hot, your mobility is limited as well as your sight. You can't grab anything with the bulky gloves on. It is much easier and safer to shut it down, safe everything off (LOTO, ground straps, etc), then do the work.

 

[teco]

You are missing the point completely, the NEC is nto about safe work practices, which is the only reason your question is not addressed. The NEC is called the NFPA 70, which has several suplemental documents for other than installation concerns such as maintenence of those systems (NFPA 70B) and safety for working with those systems (NFPA 70E). I have a feeling you are just trying to get an answer you want, regarless of it being correct or not.

I think your answer is no then, Thanks

 

[iwire]

I believe the NEC is all about designing and utilizing electricity safely through work practices.

The NEC itself says no.

90.1 Purpose.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

 

[e57]

I think the only - "worker safety code" in the NEC is 110.26 and a handfull others in 110. And many of them assume the equipment will be energized. And like it or not - this and a few other codes infringe on design of equipment and the spaces they are in.

II. 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less
110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. Sufficient
access and working space shall be provided and maintained
about all electric equipment to permit ready and safe
operation and maintenance of such equipment. Enclosures
housing electrical apparatus that are controlled by a lock(s)​

shall be considered accessible to qualified persons.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment
operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely
to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or
maintenance while energized shall comply with the
dimensions of 1l0.26(A)(I), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as
required or permitted elsewhere in this​

​

​

​

Code.​

(1) Depth of Working Space. The depth of the working
space in the direction of live parts shall not be less than that
specified in Table 110.26(A)(l) unless the requirements of
110.26(A)(l)(a), (A)(l)(b), or (A)(l)(c) are met. Distances
shall be measured from the exposed live parts or from the​

enclosure or opening if the live parts are enclosed.

That said - NFPA70E is the code to look to for protection levels, practices, approach distances etc. for live work.

Now not to say I'm a cowboy or anything, but in younger days - due to ingnorance of potential hazards - I did a lot of live work I probably should not have done. But for some reason - none of this so-called luck has ever paid off in Vegas or Reno..... :roll: But I guess it's not wise to push it either....

 

[bhsrnd]

I tell them that a planned outage always costs less than an unplanned one.

It seems like they do not trust their 'backup/redundant power' systems. What do they do when the utility goes down during a storm?

Maybe we're just lucky, but the same issue of not trusting the backup systems came up at my company a couple years ago. The "higher ups" felt it was an unreasonable risk to transfer to generators during the day while preventive maintenance was performed on our UPS modules. We basically asked them: "If you don't trust the backup systems, then why do we have them and why do we continue to pay for preventive maintenance?".

That actually got them to stop shooting-from-the-hip and think about their ridiculous stance.

 

[teco]

I think the only - "worker safety code" in the NEC is 110.26 and a handfull others in 110. And many of them assume the equipment will be energized. And like it or not - this and a few other codes infringe on design of equipment and the spaces they are in.



That said - NFPA70E is the code to look to for protection levels, practices, approach distances etc. for live work.

Now not to say I'm a cowboy or anything, but in younger days - due to ingnorance of potential hazards - I did a lot of live work I probably should not have done. But for some reason - none of this so-called luck has ever paid off in Vegas or Reno..... :roll: But I guess it's not wise to push it either....

I agree with you. I believe some of these articles are about as near as the NEC comes to the topic. I also believe that safe working practices encompasses more the how one performs their installation. I believe some of the NEC, such as working space, means of egress, accessibility, etc are to allow a safe working area, or a safe way out, etc. I can see that some do not agree with me and I respect their opinions.

As for my situation, the company supervisor says the NEC does not prohibit doing this type of work live. I said it doesn't have to, other agencies do. The facility director is listening to his in-house crew, who say " we do this live all the time". I'll stick to my guns, and wave the OSHA regulations at them and see if I can bring them around.

Thanks all.