3 wire vs 4 for oven on kitchen remodel

[sparky333]

Iam doing the electrical on a kitchen remodel we pulled a permit.theres an existing 10-2 romex for the old cooktop its a gas/elec combo.Had a 3 wire cord and recp.The new appliance is a 30 also and has a jumper from the neutral and ground installed from the factory.My question is by the NEC do I have to make this a 4 wire deal and run a 10-3 all the way across the house seeing its not new construction and just a kitchen renovation.I know on a new house it has to be 4 wire but what about this situation.I know the neutral is just for the display and LED,s.And i would have normally just left the 10-2 left the factory installed jumper on .But the contractors kinda goofy and the inspectors hard core.What is the nec say about remodels.Thanks evrybody.

Sparky

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Iam doing the electrical on a kitchen remodel we pulled a permit.theres an existing 10-2 romex for the old cooktop its a gas/elec combo.Had a 3 wire cord and recp.The new appliance is a 30 also and has a jumper from the neutral and ground installed from the factory.My question is by the NEC do I have to make this a 4 wire deal and run a 10-3 all the way across the house seeing its not new construction and just a kitchen renovation.I know on a new house it has to be 4 wire but what about this situation.I know the neutral is just for the display and LED,s.And i would have normally just left the 10-2 left the factory installed jumper on .But the contractors kinda goofy and the inspectors hard core.What is the nec say about remodels.Thanks evrybody.

Sparky

Has the location of the appliance changed during the remodel?

 

[sparky333]

no its the same place thats why I want to use the same 10-2

 

[iwire]

The NEC has never allowed 10/2 NM to be used to supply a 240/120 cook top.

If using NM and you need a neutral at the cook top, the neutral is required to be insulated.

The code allows using the neutral as the grounding means it does not allow the grounding means to be used as the neutral.

In my opinion the inspector should require the cable replaced or the homeowners pick another cook top that is straight 240 volt.

 

[sparky333]

Gota get ready for work Gonna run a 10-3 across the attic Ill check back tonight were gonna get paid for it I always just wanna know what the Code says
Remember
saftey first
Sparky333

 

[sparky333]

I dont thinks its a 120/240 Its a 240v and it had the jumper installed in the cooktop from the factory.Ill find out if its a 120/240 or just 240


Gota run thanks

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If the plug is not moved and your new install is 240 your OK as is. If you new install is 120/240 then you need change wire. What was allowed years ago was to bond the frame to the neutral. And that neutral was required to be insulated. Many old ranges were ran on alum.SE cable.

 

[jph320]

I would run 10/3. Black and Red for your hots, the white to your third prong or groung, and take the groung wire to the box housing.

 

[Hendrix]

And that neutral was required to be insulated. Many old ranges were ran on alum.SE cable.

So......where is the insulated nutral there ?

 

[Split Bolt]

As someone said earlier, 10-2 romex was never allowed for this. SE cable w/ 2 ins. conductors and a ground was. If your new cooktop has a neutral to ground jumper as you stated, then it is 120/240. IMHO, you need to "do the right thing."

 

[iwire]

So......where is the insulated nutral there ?

There is an exception allowing a bare neutral with SE cable but not NM.

No it does not make sense but it is what it is.

 

[Split Bolt]

There is an exception allowing a bare neutral with SE cable but not NM.

No it does not make sense but it is what it is.

I never could understand this one either! But, just like Prego spaghetti sauce, "it's in there!" No matter what type of 2-wire cable used, the chassis of the appliance still becomes part of the return path of the circuit whenever a 120v component of the appliance is used. GO FIGURE!

 

[Split Bolt]

From what I can remember, which is less every day, mobile homes & trailers ALWAYS required 4 conductors for the dryer & range.

 

[iwire]

From what I can remember, which is less every day, mobile homes & trailers ALWAYS required 4 conductors for the dryer & range.

You remember correctly and any range and dryer from a sub panel has always been required to be four wire. AFAIK

 

[LarryFine]

I dont thinks its a 120/240 Its a 240v and it had the jumper installed in the cooktop from the factory.Ill find out if its a 120/240 or just 240

Nope, if there's a jumper, then there's a neutral, so the bare wire in NM cannot be used.

If the original installation had been compliant, you could have re-used the 3-wire circuit.

Added: The bare in SE cable is a neutral, not an EGC, so it was legal to bond to it in the past.

 

[iwire]

Nope, if there's a jumper, then there's a neutral, so the bare wire in NM cannot be used.

Agree.

Added: The bare in SE cable is a neutral, not an EGC,

Wouldn't that depend on the installation?

SEU supplying a 240 load will have no neutral.

 

[LarryFine]

Wouldn't that depend on the installation?

SEU supplying a 240 load will have no neutral.

Agreed. I was talking about the cable's construction, not its eventual use. The bare in SE is intended for use as a neutral, the bare in NM is not.

 

[mshane]

If the plug is not moved and your new install is 240 your OK as is. If you new install is 120/240 then you need change wire. What was allowed years ago was to bond the frame to the neutral. And that neutral was required to be insulated. Many old ranges were ran on alum.SE cable.

Agree! But before you install anything be sure that everything has no power. Safety first! That's always our motto!