junction box in attic-inspector question

Status
Not open for further replies.
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
480sparky said:
Put one of those innocent-looking little critters in, and you render the wiring in the box inaccessible.

"Well, ma'am, I'm sure the short is in this box, but I can't get to it because of the foam insulation behind the cover. You'd better hire some unlicensed hack from Craigslist if you want it fixed."
Click to expand...


Well Sparky maybe no one has yet taught you that a device cover is part of the electrical system and sure ain't no insulation.

You are trying your damnest to
 
N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
jwelectric said:
I already did but to humor you one more time. Can you explain to me how you are confusing a ceiling tile and blown insulation. I do believe we are talking about two separate items.

But to address your question in full should that drop ceiling be installed in a manner that didn?t allow for removal and replacement of the tile then the box wouldn?t be allowed to be installed there would it?


And finally for those who do not know permission is given to allow a box to be installed above a suspended ceiling in 300.23

Did I cover this in enough detail for you this time?
Click to expand...


So this tile which is INSULATION, what of that??


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.alibaba.com/photo/105488688/Pre_Insulated_Ceiling_tiles.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.himfr.com/d-p1116119598290477400-Pre_Insulated_Ceiling_tiles/&usg=__zZfyO0U4exkpEt5lvoRBEWoTmAE=&h=283&w=378&sz=33&hl=en&start=0&sig2=T8_Jd85aK7GjcX4Pnxnw-Q&tbnid=qHqfuPx4YvWoTM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=180&ei=ACNKTPu6LIOC8gbI1tUy&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dinsulated%2Bceiling%2Btiles%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DqU7%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26biw%3D1107%26bih%3D542%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=181&page=1&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
jwelectric said:
Well Sparky maybe no one has yet taught you that a device cover is part of the electrical system and sure ain't no insulation.

You are trying your damnest to
Click to expand...


Try reading it again........ there's insulation behind the cover plate....... insulation that, according to you, cannot be disturbed.
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
jwelectric said:
No what you are going to do is remove it from its original position and deposit it wherever you little heart desires. Should you decide to insert it into you pocket wouldn't matter to the fact that it was removed from its original position now would it?
Click to expand...

It would be just as "effective" the second placement. You cannot "compress"it,,,,,,,,everybody knows that. Who said we were gonna compress it upon (re)placement? What would you do, rent an insulation blower and reblow it in? I think not. The insulators do that because of mass placement and high production insulating.

They MOST CERTAINLY man handle the same insulation into places they cannot get by machine. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO "RE-PLACE" OR MANHANDLE BLOWN IN INSULATION
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
jwelectric said:
A plate cover is part of the electrical system and is not part of the building that is being removed to acess the electrical system.

Using your logic a junction box could be installed behind a finished sheetrock wall.
Click to expand...


OK, since you don't want to go back and read it, here it is again: Look close...............

outlets_insulation_covers.jpg



This is NOT a cover plate. It is insulation....... which, according to you, cannot be disturbed.

if I were to place this insulation behind the cover plate, I therefor render the wiring in the box illegal to access.
​
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
WOW! WHAT A THREAD!!! I've been staying away from this one because it looked boring. Who knew it was so exciting? Instead of watching the Netflix movie of the week with my wife, I'm going to make some popcorn and come back to read the whole thread!

The edible kind of popcorn...not the insulation!:D
 
eric9822

eric9822

Senior Member
Location
Camarillo, CA
Occupation
Electrical and Instrumentation Tech
Split Bolt said:
WOW! WHAT A THREAD!!! I've been staying away from this one because it looked boring. Who knew it was so exciting? Instead of watching the Netflix movie of the week with my wife, I'm going to make some popcorn and come back to read the whole thread!

The edible kind of popcorn...not the insulation!:D
Click to expand...

It's been very entertaining. :)
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Split Bolt said:
Went downstairs to get a soda out of the fridge. I was about to open it when I noticed insulating material all around the door! Now what?!?

Sorry!:D
Click to expand...
Your fridge is in violation of Section 1278.5.3.9.8 of the Insulation Disturbing Act of 2010. Assume the position.........
030106YA36_prv.gif
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Ok I found the ROP, where this was rejected to require the location of box's in attics to be identified at the panel or source of supply:

Report on Proposals – May 2004 NFPA 70
9-69 Log #1604 NEC-P09
(314-30 (New) )
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: David Shapiro, Safety First Electrical Contracting, Consulting, and Safety Education
Recommendation:
Add new text to read as follows:
Concealed boxes and conduit bodies shall be identified. The locations of boxes and conduit bodies that are concealed due to structural
features shall be identified either by indicators in their immediate vicinity by notes at the sources of the circuits they feed, or at the next
boxes or conduit bodies both immediately upstream and downstream from them.
Exception: Boxes and conduit bodies concealed behind access hatches or suspended ceiling panels.
Substantiation:
If a box is buried in gravel, you're not likely to find it except by sheer luck, or an immense amount of effort, without somebody marking
the spot. Well, the same can be true of some boxes buried in attic insulation. The same can be true of boxes under attic flooring that is
not nailed down. On one job I can name, a junction box is hidden in a drywall ceiling, but legal because it is accessible if you know to
drop the can of the recessed light to which it is adjacent. Insist that installers paste a note on the panel, if nothing better, or these boxes
might as well be plastered over.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
Boxes that are covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil are required to have their location identified per
Section 314.29 Exception. Boxes and conduit bodies concealed by structural features of a building do not meet the requirements of
Section 314.29.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
Comment on Affirmative:
HARTWELL: The Code already requires what the submitter wants to achieve. For example, 314.29 Exception requires "effectively
identified". This is usually applied through a marking at the branch-circuit source for underground enclosures. Interior locations may
require work and some amount of luck to find quickly, but there is a significant difference between exercising patience and needing to
rip walls and ceilings open.
Click to expand...

And it was rejected, highlighted in red is one of the panel members response, which was kind of what I said last night in my ramblings, "It may require work" ok so quit being lazy and find the box's.

You guys have it, I'm done with this thread, the above is as good as a formal interpretation.
 
Last edited:
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
it's funny that there wasn't any remarks that Say's box's can't be buried in attic insulation in this whole proposal, which says it is acceptable, and the comment also supports this.

Ok I'm done



maybe;)
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
OK, I read the whole thread, without my soda. (I'll need to call the county first thing Monday morning to figure out how I can legally open the fridge!:grin:)

Here is my HUMBLE opinion: I don't like boxes buried in attic insulation. I choose NOT to bury boxes in insulation. I do not feel it is a code violation if someone else did that. In general, inspectors get big egos after a while and start rejecting things they don't like, whether legal or not! Nothing personal to my inspector friends out there, it's just the way it is! (authority has that effect on all humans!) Twice in the past 2 years, I had jobs rejected in Fairfax County, VA. In both cases, there were no NEC violations! In both cases, I left very irate voice mails in the inspector's v/m boxes asking for the NEC article that they based their decision on. In both cases, I did not get a call back, but my inspections were changed to "approved" on the county website! Go figure! I'm still at odds with the City of Alexandria, VA about not allowing 15A DUPLEX receptacles on 20A microwave circuits, but they won't budge!

Again, Just my opinion!:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top