Remote sub panel vs. running out multiple homeruns?

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M4gery

M4gery

Senior Member
What is your policy on installing remotely located sub panels in average sized house (old work/remodeling)?

Let's say, for example, you are wiring a kitchen remodel which will require 7 circuits. Do you install a sub panel or just run out multiple homeruns to the main panel? Where is your threshold when deciding between the two? Or do you always try to keep all the circuits going back to the main panel location?

Many sub panels are small and can be hidden behind a picture in a hallway. It seems that it would be cost effective to install one instead of running out so many circuits. I was wondering how contractors usually handled this?
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
Often I run into battles with Arch's & Designers over the work space required for a panel closer to loads - like say a kitchen...

Even then it really depends on the building, its construction, space available, and the distance/pathways to the loads.

In a few situations, placing a sub-panel closer was a necessity more than an option. But those are few and far between... And most are a coin toss, but then the battle begins on the 'Where' part....

That said, I have a whole laundry list of more creative places to put panels other than behind a picture frame. Most of them are contrary to costs and it can be a delicate balance between design and what amounts to be more than a roll of dimes in a remodel situation... (Requiring more work to get 30 circuits through an existing space vs a #8 or #2 feeder that may already be there.)



Some of my favorites:
  • Side panel of lower kit cabs behind false panel.
  • Side of a kitchen Island too.
  • An extra (false) door in the hallway.
  • Pop-out panels in the wall. (Once in wainscoting)
  • Behind a floor to ceiling mirror, once on barn door hardware.
  • The attic.
 
reddy kw

reddy kw

Member
Location
Mudville, upstate New York.
M4gery said:
What is your policy on installing remotely located sub panels in average sized house (old work/remodeling)?

Let's say, for example, you are wiring a kitchen remodel which will require 7 circuits. Do you install a sub panel or just run out multiple homeruns to the main panel? Where is your threshold when deciding between the two? Or do you always try to keep all the circuits going back to the main panel location?

Many sub panels are small and can be hidden behind a picture in a hallway. It seems that it would be cost effective to install one instead of running out so many circuits. I was wondering how contractors usually handled this?
Click to expand...

I was faced with this situation a hundred times (subcontracted for kitchen remodelers for years)). I usually preferred to put in sub-panel. If I have to snake and fish 85 feet through several floors, multiple joists and plates, etc, I'd much rather do it ONCE with one larger cable then many times with many small cables. Plus I'd install a new panel with space for future expansion, rather then jamming more breakers in an old, already crowded box.
Things to consider: How far away from main panel is kitchen? Are you responsible for making holes to fish the cables (and patching them later) or are carpenters on the job who do this for you? Is there a code-compliant location to put the sub-panel? Customers may ask sub-panels be located out of sight in closets, bathrooms, behind doors etc., but don't do it-it's no longer code-compliant.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
jumper said:
I would rather pull one large feeder, set a panel, and go to small runs of branch circuits, than pull many sets of individual branch circuits over a long distance.
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I can't disagree with that however to me there are more reasons not to that overrule ease of my work.

I don't think we are doing the customer any favors by adding sub panels around the home.
 
M4gery

M4gery

Senior Member
Thanks guys, this is the exact type of discussion that I was hoping for. I like to see the opposing views of issues like this, it helps me learn the in's and out's of the trade.


iwire said:
I can't disagree with that however to me there are more reasons not to that overrule ease of my work.
Click to expand...

What reasons are those?
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M4gery said:
What reasons are those?
Click to expand...

Hidden panels like e57 described get forgotten about as tenants change. That leads to wasted time when troubleshooting.

Panels added out of the way in the living space today may be in the way tomorrow.

Place all the panels together, one of my bosses homes was about 25,000 sq ft and we still located every panel in a basement electrical room.

There is no 'right answer' and there are certainly times where I might add a sub panel in a remote location but in general I am against it.
 
M4gery

M4gery

Senior Member
iwire said:
Place all the panels together, one of my bosses homes was about 25,000 sq ft and we still located every panel in a basement electrical room.
Click to expand...

There were no voltage drop issues in that size house with only one electrical room?
 
I

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
iwire said:
Hidden panels like e57 described get forgotten about as tenants change. That leads to wasted time when troubleshooting.

Panels added out of the way in the living space today may be in the way tomorrow.

Place all the panels together, one of my bosses homes was about 25,000 sq ft and we still located every panel in a basement electrical room.

There is no 'right answer' and there are certainly times where I might add a sub panel in a remote location but in general I am against it.
Click to expand...

It's not too unusual where e57 works to have 4 or more floors for a residence. Also the architecture and the architects and engineers are kinda funny. The latter can be very restrictive about holes being drilled. Sub-panels in SF are mostly installed on upper floors.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
ike5547 said:
It's not too unusual where e57 works to have 4 or more floors for a residence. Also the architecture and the architects and engineers are kinda funny. The latter can be very restrictive about holes being drilled. Sub-panels in SF are mostly installed on upper floors.
Click to expand...

Like I said I am 'generally' against them, when I used to do condos or apartments of course each unit would get a sub-panel. We do not have many four floor single family homes but if I had my choice I would still rather have all the panels in one location.

It is definitely a 'to each their own' 'adjust to job conditions' kind of question. :)
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
ike5547 said:
It happens in SF a lot when the home are built on steep hills. The floors also end up staggered in layers horizontally.
Click to expand...
And then - theres the TIC, and converted multi-family Victorian to a Condo's - in a siezmic active area where you have a battle to keep finishes, and layers of glue lams and steel that everyone won't let you bore even if they were exposed... But you might still have a 1 1/4" riser coming into the unit.

Anyway the OP seemed specific to remodels - and given the choice - I'd put a panel in the kitchen.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
iwire said:
Hidden panels like e57 described get forgotten about as tenants change. That leads to wasted time when troubleshooting.

Panels added out of the way in the living space today may be in the way tomorrow.

Place all the panels together, one of my bosses homes was about 25,000 sq ft and we still located every panel in a basement electrical room.

There is no 'right answer' and there are certainly times where I might add a sub panel in a remote location but in general I am against it.
Click to expand...
I'll agree - in certain obvious 60's remodels - if a Kitchen circuit is out, and there is an electric range - look under the sink (of all places) for a small panel. and I have remodeled a few of those - finding I was in the same situation as the guy who put it under the sink in the first place.... At least I'll give it a decent work-space...

As for the multiple HR's in a big house - the labor is through the roof unless you can pull it like phone wire - ALL AT THE SAME TIME.... (in bundles) And even in a larger home with Homeworks or some other centralized dimming - trying to get an "Electrical Room" (Rare deal) or even a 'Mechanical' area is like pulling teeth. (If it's not full by the time I get there...)

But yes - it's a delicate balance - sometimes it's WW3!
 
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