What??? Not 100???

[straynote6]

Strange as it may seem, last night I had a student verbally (and out loud) challenge me about a question I marked wrong on his test.

The question: What is the formula for Apparent Power?
Correct answer = Papp = IV
His answer: IV

I marked it wrong and he became livid. Shouting profanity laced comments.

Was I wrong and too critical?

By the way, his final test score was 99%.

 

[augie47]

folks who can score 99 seem to get a bit more bent out of shape with the one question wrong, but wrong is wrong. Part of his learning process.
if that upsets him I can't imagine his future in the "real world"

 

[iwire]

FWIW, I would have made clear if anything like that happens again the person would be kicked out of class.

 

[straynote6]

I agree with both of the previous comments and thank you for responding.

Perhaps Monday, I should re-inform the class that the best thing I have to offer them after school is over are these...

1. Though I do not hold all the keys to their future, I do hold one... my personal endorsement to their abilities, attitude and attendance.

2. A letter of recommendation that speaks volume about them personally.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree the student was an ass but I also think you were too strict in the marking. He obviously knew the answer but this is not Jeopardy. :grin:

 

[charlie b]

The question: What is the formula for Apparent Power?

Correct answer = Papp = IV
His answer: IV

The question asked for a fomula, not an equivalent factor. Technically, the answer was wrong.

That said, the question was inadequate, in that it did not say whether you were asking about a single phase or three phase system. Your answer is right for a single phase system, but your answer was only half right, since there were two possible answers.

 

[mivey]

Unless you were teaching and stressing equation writing (which is probably a bit beyond the scope of what is most important in this type class) I think you were being a horse's behind to mark it wrong. I don't blame him for being upset but that is no excuse for him to be a horse's behind either.

 

[augie47]

I strongly support your post at #4.
You are a teacher ! What these folks learn in your class is important, and teaching them some basics about interacting with others is a lot more important than teaching them the formula for apparent power.
Assuming many of them will are searching employment, I feel you would be remiss not to remind them that in the real world actions like the witnesses would often result in termination.

 

[mivey]

1. Though I do not hold all the keys to their future, I do hold one... my personal endorsement to their abilities, attitude and attendance.

That certainly can be helpful to a student with few references.

2. A letter of recommendation that speaks volume about them personally.

I doubt limited exposure to a person in a classroom environment will give you volumes of information about anybody. I find many times that the impression I get about some people in these brief encounters is just a glimpse of who they are. Sometimes you only see the worst side of people and it takes a lot more exposure to weigh that brief exposure against what may be some much more redeeming qualities.

Then again, sometimes I find that what you see is what you get. :grin:

...wrong is wrong. Part of his learning process.

Come on! Let's get serious. Was the real intent of the question to quiz the student on the difference between formulas and expressions? I seriously doubt it. If that had been the focus of part of the course I would understand but do you really believe that was an important distinction that was emphasized in class? It may have been, but I would find that surprising given the context of the class.

Part of his learning process my eye! If this was marked wrong without proper training on the difference, it was just a means to be a wise-guy on the part of the teacher. I have seen this many times in my long years and most of the times the guys who do things in this manner are a little odd in my book (at least if it is a pattern of behavior).

Why be a wise guy when we are ultimately trying to help the students? You might play a little word game like that in class to make a point but leave the funny business off of the exam.

I strongly support your post at #4.
You are a teacher ! What these folks learn in your class is important, and teaching them some basics about interacting with others is a lot more important than teaching them the formula for apparent power.
Assuming many of them will are searching employment, I feel you would be remiss not to remind them that in the real world actions like the witnesses would often result in termination.

I make no apologies for the student being a knuckle head. He obviously has some growing up to do. His response was totally inappropriate and there are better ways to handle situations like this. Instead of publicly humiliating the student further than what he has done to himself, how about taking the high road and talk to him one on one? Un-ruffle your feathers and see if you can really help him. Let him know you were being too picky but that his response was inappropriate.

Teaching the student about interacting with others? Perhaps there is a little humility and learning due on both sides. Perhaps the teacher should learn the real-world reactions to being so picky. I think there may be one lesson learned already.

The question was evidently a test of the student's knowledge of the power, voltage, and current relationship and he obviously knew the material as presented (with charlie b's post about the inadequacies of the question being noted).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The issue of grading has always come up. The teacher who marks a history test for spelling errors, a math teacher marking it wrong for not showing the work or not giving you partial credit for knowing the process but making a stupid calc. error, etc. You teach the best you can and you do what you feel is best. My teaching methods would not have marked it wrong but I may have noted that the full formula was what you were looking for. I wouldn't lose sleep over it as both of you will get over it.

 

[K8MHZ]

As a student that strived for 100 percent on every test I took, I can relate to the student's ire. To the average person, 99 percent is so close to 100 percent the difference shouldn't matter much. To a person that strives for perfection, the difference between 99 and 100 percent is huge.

I once got some very sage information from one of my favorite teachers. He said he never felt slighted by a student that argued with him for that student may have been the only one in class actually listening.

Now, what you as a teacher did was to prevent the perfect score over semantics. You asked for a formula, but the student answered with an expression. Did you ever at any point in your class teach the difference between a formula and an expression? If you did, did you inform your students that if asked for a formula and an expression was given instead, even one that demonstrated the student's knowledge of the subject in an undeniably succinct manner, would be marked wrong?

 

[LarryFine]

After looking up the definitions of both 'equation' and 'formula', I'm going to have to side with the student on the facts of the case. The equation requires the equal sign; the formula does (or at least may) not.

In my opinion, he answered the question in that he showed he is capable of deriving the mathematical answer. A simple mention that you prefer the equation when asked for a formula would have been helpful.

The student's behavior, on the other hand, was inexcusable. This is also a great example of how not to behave when you disagree with an inspector's decision. He should be taught how to appeal such a decision.

Best response: "See me after class."

 

[Smart $]

After looking up the definitions of both 'equation' and 'formula', I'm going to have to side with the student on the facts of the case. The equation requires the equal sign; the formula does (or at least may) not.

...

I agree. Asking for the formula of "x" implies equality and asks only for composition, and being mathematical in nature, requires only a mathematical expression in reply.

Asking for an equation, on the other hand, requires a reply with a mathematical statement that two expressions are equal.

 

[straynote6]

In hindsight, maybe I overstepped the bounds of what is right and what is wrong.

Clearly, I knew the individual understood the question and answer and there's no doubt in my mind, he understands the formula. Having said that, I'll re-evaluate the whole scenario on Monday, God willing.

 

[kwired]

After looking up the definitions of both 'equation' and 'formula', I'm going to have to side with the student on the facts of the case. The equation requires the equal sign; the formula does (or at least may) not.

In my opinion, he answered the question in that he showed he is capable of deriving the mathematical answer. A simple mention that you prefer the equation when asked for a formula would have been helpful.

The student's behavior, on the other hand, was inexcusable. This is also a great example of how not to behave when you disagree with an inspector's decision. He should be taught how to appeal such a decision.

Best response: "See me after class."

Exactly.

This kid needs to learn - apparently as soon as possible - that just because he is pretty smart does not mean he knows everything and that not everyone will always agree with him.

We are talking about a 99% grade vs 100%, not pass vs fail, he needs to experience whatever he needs to learn from it, even if he feels he was right or in fact was right, and move on. You have to pick your battles and I don't see this as one worth fighting.

 

[K8MHZ]

In hindsight, maybe I overstepped the bounds of what is right and what is wrong.

Clearly, I knew the individual understood the question and answer and there's no doubt in my mind, he understands the formula. Having said that, I'll re-evaluate the whole scenario on Monday, God willing.

I have no doubt that the student in question would gain a lot of respect for you if you did. Especially if he knows that the incident was so important to you that you sought advice from this forum and had a change of heart.

Teaching is an art and most teachers just plain don't know how to teach. I teach amateur radio classes that prepare students to pass an FCC licensing test. In my mind, if a student fails, I have failed. So far, every one of the students that completed my classes passed the FCC exam on the first try. This includes my daughter, who was 11 years old at the time.

Where a teacher fails the most is engaging in a battle of egos. Traditionally, it's always been teacher vs. student. This is evidenced by the manner in which the typical classroom is laid out. Students on one side of the desk, and teacher on the other.

I don't do it that way. I mingle amongst the students and sometimes sit with them and put another student in front of the white board. I encourage an open dialogue and love it when a sharp student catches a mistake I have made. (Yes, I have made mistakes teaching classes).

FWIW, in high school I challenged my teachers every opportunity I got. One day in my physics class I found an error in my teacher's handout. I rode my bike down to the local college (about 6 miles) and found a college level textbook proving that I was correct. I checked the book out of the library and brought it to my physics class. When I challenged my teacher and provided the textbook as proof, she blew a gasket and screamed (In front of the entire class) "The book is wrong!!"

From that point on she became known as Mrs. The Book Is Wrong.

On edit, I finished #1 in my 40 student apprenticeship class and was the first person in the history of our local to get over 100 percent in our 5 year final exam. I got an extra credit question correct that was not taught in class. I learned it from a journeyman I worked with during my 1st year. I challenged my teachers there, too and even so, I am friends with all of them to this day. My first year teacher was a ham radio operator like me and the journeyman that taught me the answer to the extra credit question was a ham, too.

 

[K8MHZ]

Exactly.

This kid needs to learn - apparently as soon as possible - that just because he is pretty smart does not mean he knows everything and that not everyone will always agree with him.

We are talking about a 99% grade vs 100%, not pass vs fail, he needs to experience whatever he needs to learn from it, even if he feels he was right or in fact was right, and move on. You have to pick your battles and I don't see this as one worth fighting.

And just because the teacher is smart does not mean he knows everything.

Teaching by example is far more effective than being a talking textbook.

To me, 100 percent is at least twice as good as 99 percent. How many people do you know that have framed and hung on the wall exam scores of 99 percent? Yet, it's quite common to see them with a 100 percent score. I doubt I would have framed my final year results if I only got a 99 on my exam. I did frame it because of my #1 status and my 101 percent grade on my final.

 

[mivey]

This is also a great example of how not to behave when you disagree with an inspector's decision. He should be taught how to appeal such a decision.

That's a good point. And probably a good discussion for the class in light of the incident. I can see something like:

"Let's discuss how to handle an inspection that might not have gone they way you expected and some methods you might could use to resolve any issues you feel might be present. Part of your job will be to not only make sure your work is compliant, but to be ready to defend your work when called into question. You may be right or you may be wrong but you need to know how to handle these situations.

How many think that getting upset and yelling at an inspector will help the discussion? How many think if you approach the situation calmly, rationally and with the facts in hand it might produce better results?

It has been my experience that cooler minds can often prevail. If you immediately insult the inspector and put them on the defensive, how do you expect to have a rational discussion? I'm sure we can all think about experiences we have had in similar situations.

So what would be your approach? What options do you have if you can't reach common ground? You might even consider if all battles are worth fighting and how far you take it. Anybody have input?

..."

 

[mivey]

To me, 100 percent is at least twice as good as 99 percent.

If one were my surgeon I would say a 100% job was at least twice as good. :grin:

 

[sgunsel]

I have been involved in safety training in industry for several years. I concluded that there can often be more than one correct answer to most questions, depending on the question itself and the test takers background. It is almost impossible to assure that all questions are 100% unambiguous. I always gave test takers a chance to explain their answer, and frequently based on what they said, agree that the question could be interpreted differently and gladly gave them credit when appropriate. What you say and what they hear are not always the same thing! The real issue is do they understand the material.