I want to punch something

[G._S._Ohm]

Speaking of people getting burned to death because of cost constraints
http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-10/...lities-fires-gm-engineer-edward-ivey?_s=PM:US

As a first approximation, if a single life is worth $200K and the new system costs $25K they should buy the system if the likelihood of a fatal fire is 25/200 = 13% or more.

If your area allows 'one party taping' I'd get this turkey on tape saying what you wrote. DC allows it, MD doesn't.

 

[renosteinke]

nhfire, my apologies. When I said to 'park your ego,' I meant that as advice for all of us in our customer dealings, and not to be critical of you.

It's a tactical move .... this other guy wants to show his swagger ... step back and let him step on his own 'ego.'

Used parts. Yea, right. Again, it's one thing when the guy knows what he's doing, and another when the handy hillbilly pulls out his roll of duct tape. Again- if he's so smart, let HIM fix it!

Some quizzing by the customer is in order. They're right to be a bit sceptical. After all, there are too many folks out their whose 'diagnosis' is ALWAYS to recommend a complete replacement (just had that with a furnace that merely needed a thermopile), and far too many manufacturers who make obsolence part of their business plan. (Sorry, I'm still peeved that Sq. D doesn't continue to make XO replacement breakers).

What's missing from your sales pitch is that, chances are, the problems the customer is facing have nothing to do with the panel itself. Rather, they are the result of a flawed installation, changes made over the years, and the maintenance crew's efforts. Simply swapping out boxes is not likely to fix anything.

You've made your best pitch. Now, have the confidence to relax. The CUSStomer will spend the next several months banging their heads against the wall trying to fix the unfixable. Your competitors will likely tell them as you did. Maybe they'll find an 'agreeable' sort who will let them fritter away even greater amounts on endless minor 'repairs.' Eventually, they'll know you were right.

Investors? Investors? Sorry, but after my recent foray into buying a 'fixer-upper' for my home, I have nothing but scorn for that term. It was just assumed by all involved that, since I was paying cash for a distressed property, that I simply must be an 'investor' who would rent it the dump out, as is, to some poor soul at a scandalous rate. The pioneer virtues of building up your own future, and saving your money, seems to be beyond the imagination of this world. Folks tell you they are "investors" with such pride, as they participate in such unethical practices.

Sorry for the mini-rant .... but consider it a different perspective on whom you're talking to.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

We just had new panels/devices installed in both of my buildings, panel parts no longer in production, was a no brainer for the property owner. The installer made an opto isolator interface between the old and new panels, we converted over two floors at a time, no issues. I've got spare parts now too. PM me if you are interested, I believe I had the same panels (Sie..ns).

 

[nhfire77]

Naaa I'm not building a custom intergration system. I came up with a plan for a change over in one day, one very long day. We can update all the field devices, install a new panel and then do the cut over on a different day, it would be down less than one day, with fire watches in place.Dr jorgenson

Oh yea..... The panel is behind a toilet, we have to move all the wiring 50'.

 

[Finite10]

Why let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion?

... 'special glasses'! <THAT was funny.
There's a book called "S.P.I.N. Selling" and is similar to what renosteinke is implying we do when dealing with potential clients. It says to let them say what would happen if they decide to do 'nothing' - based on your technical information he/she was so wise to have just sought/purchased.

(Note to self: once filthy rich, hang with people still willing to tell me to get stuffed)

 

[iwire]

Naaa I'm not building a custom intergration system. I came up with a plan for a change over in one day, one very long day.

That really sounds like someones ego has been hurt.

 

[nhfire77]

That really sounds like someones ego has been hurt.

My name is Nhfire77 and I have an ego. Its easily bruised....do you have any ice?

Its purely a matter of space. the panel is in a 2'x4' bathroom. Oh and my ego is probably in the way

Oh, its a bit of laziness to, I already had a plan, if I develop another plan, there is a good chance it won't get accepted.

I realize my posts seem a bit egoticistical. I am letting my guard down here, I'm just venting.

 

[LarryFine]

(Note to self: once filthy rich, hang with people still willing to tell me to get stuffed)

(Note to Finite: once filthy rich, keep hanging with us; we're happy to oblige you. :grin

 

[zbang]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with used parts. The whole thing is a collection of 25 YO used parts. How is replacing parts that do not work at all currently, with used parts that work do anything other than improve the current situation?

I have a little trouble with this rationale. The existing system is a collection of old parts, some of which are failing. Used parts for an unknown source might really fix the problems, but might make the "go away" for a short while ("tail light" guarantee, anyone?). If the ebay parts were from a reputable distributor, I would think about using them, but comes the point where it's putting band-aids on a bullet hole (or you end up replacing the panel part by part.)

That said, long ago when I was doing FA systems, we replaced a lot of old Faraday panels with Edwards and Pyrotronic. We also repaired a lot of Faraday systems with parts from those that we'd removed. OTOH, those parts were cleaned, inspected, tested, and warranted by our company.

Sounds like this client is determined to keep the old Chevy with 400k miles on the road, but still curses when it breaks down and leaves them 50 miles from nowhere.

 

[SAC]

I guess I have a somewhat fundamental disagreement with the whole attitude towards false alarms. It is much more important than the fee charged by the fire dept. What happens to the residents when there are lots of false alarms? They start ignoring the alarms altogether. In such buildings it is easily too late for people to get away safely when they finally realize the alarm isn't false, and often the fire department can't get there in time to save the lives of people trapped inside. It is very important that people vacate as soon as alarms sound. Would the building owners/management have a choice to not fix if the system repeatedly failed to signal on a real fire? We may reason away that the alarms were ignored and the resulting deaths were their own fault - but in the end the system was faulty and didn't do its job to save lives. So I fail to see how consistent false alarms is acceptable.

 

[gadfly56]

We just had new panels/devices installed in both of my buildings, panel parts no longer in production, was a no brainer for the property owner. The installer made an opto isolator interface between the old and new panels, we converted over two floors at a time, no issues. I've got spare parts now too. PM me if you are interested, I believe I had the same panels (Sie..ns).

nhfire77;

If it is a Pyrotronics (Siemens) System 3 it should last until the second coming. They're still made new for deep sea oil rigs (and no, I don't know if there was one on the Deepwater rig...) and other sundry uses. If you need a new CP-35 or PS-35 or whatever, PM me.

 

[nhfire77]

nhfire77;

If it is a Pyrotronics (Siemens) System 3 it should last until the second coming. They're still made new for deep sea oil rigs (and no, I don't know if there was one on the Deepwater rig...) and other sundry uses. If you need a new CP-35 or PS-35 or whatever, PM me.

No, its not its not that the panel is currently not functioning, but there are so many false alarms and no records of where. We have permission, from the FD, to swap out the panel and pick up the zones with two wire modules and replace the smokes (only 56 total), not a full blown upgrade. It is a great compromise on cost, I sold the idea to the FD because it reduces false alarms and reduces costs, and will allow us to track any problems per zone.

Adding a separate panel to track each zone currently installed would be another band aid patch job. I realize its possible, but I am trying to get the horrid mess that is not compliant now, nor would have been when it was installed. Since the FD "approved' the install the owners assume its fine. No one has pulled permits for any of the "repairs and upgrades" (I use those terms loosely) No records of any kind exist for the system. The FD admits their inspections 25 years ago were not exactly up to snuff.

I like to solve problems not drag them out. We could certainly do whatever the client asks, and we just might, and use used parts. But that will not solve the problem of random false alarms that are untraceable because the panel is normal when the tech is on site, or no zone is in alarm, just the panel.

 

[gadfly56]

No, its not its not that the panel is currently not functioning, but there are so many false alarms and no records of where. We have permission, from the FD, to swap out the panel and pick up the zones with two wire modules and replace the smokes (only 56 total), not a full blown upgrade. It is a great compromise on cost, I sold the idea to the FD because it reduces false alarms and reduces costs, and will allow us to track any problems per zone.

Adding a separate panel to track each zone currently installed would be another band aid patch job. I realize its possible, but I am trying to get the horrid mess that is not compliant now, nor would have been when it was installed. Since the FD "approved' the install the owners assume its fine. No one has pulled permits for any of the "repairs and upgrades" (I use those terms loosely) No records of any kind exist for the system. The FD admits their inspections 25 years ago were not exactly up to snuff.

I like to solve problems not drag them out. We could certainly do whatever the client asks, and we just might, and use used parts. But that will not solve the problem of random false alarms that are untraceable because the panel is normal when the tech is on site, or no zone is in alarm, just the panel.

I'm kinda cruising with the idea that it is a System 3, so... if the panel goes into alarm without a zone being in alarm, it's a fried CP-35. Or it might be an old CP-30, in which case a new panel is the only way to go. The CP-30 isn't made anymore, and replacing with the CP-35 means a new power supply and new zone cards. A new addressable panel with zone modules is the ticket. Can I interest you in an XLS panel...?

 

[nhfire77]

A new addressable panel with zone modules is the ticket. Can I interest you in an XLS panel...?

Its FCI-72, which is a great very forgiving conventional panel, but its been abused and neglected.

 

[mivey]

Actively ignoring safety is stupid...it's the negligence that bothers me.

I feel your pain. I deal with people like that on from time to time. I get paid good money to give good advice. I can't make them take it. Sometimes I find myself giving the same advice over and over. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

If you are a rational person, you just can't get in the mind of irrational people. I've tried. To have someone understand what you are saying, but refuse to do the right thing: there is just no explaining it.

Some people just think different and they will never do the right thing unless it affects their currency. Money is not always their currency. Sometimes it is shame, embarrassment, popularity, fear, etc. Unless you feel like playing doctor and figuring them out, you just have to move on. Even if you find their currency, you may not have access to it. C'est la vie.

 

[Finite10]

(Note to Finite: once filthy rich, keep hanging with us; we're happy to oblige you. :grin

Instant classic ->:grin:

 

[gadfly56]

Its FCI-72, which is a great very forgiving conventional panel, but its been abused and neglected.

I have PDF's of both the installation and operating manual and the separate troubleshooting manual if you're interested.

 

[jmellc]

I don't do FA, but I see the same general issue sometimes. Customer wants things fixed well, made safe, etc. Just give him a quote. Then he didn't know it would be so high, can't do all that, can we just make it safer than it is? So and so says this and that. So and so isn't there to do the work.

Don't hesitate to walk away if you're getting saddled with liability. You will be the one hung with this in spite of what the customer says now. If something happens, he'll never "remember" telling you to cut corners. He will say, "I wanted it to be safe". Don't be forced into something you don't think is safe and decent quality.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

they assured him the 25 year old panel has NOT reached the end of its life yet, and that its almost impossible to have a problem, [1]

He then proceeds to quote prices on Ebay for used parts for the system.
He tells us that his job is to not spend money, because they won't own the property for too long and would rather pass the buck down the road.
Then he tells me he doesn't want to spend any money because he is sure that "soon the federal government will mandate all fire alarms of a certain age to be replaced with a current code compliant system, you know they can do it." It was said half kidding and half serious. "That's what the economy needs" he blurts out as if to blame the current political climate.

[1] this is clearly a conflict of interest. The people to ask about system reliability are customers, and not the customers who are happy with the system.

No politically savvy person would ever state their position in such crystal clear terms and it is somewhat in your favor that he did so.

Just don't get left holding the bag.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

when my opinion doesn't matter? I am the only one with any in depth technical knowledge, license or certification talking to him about this.

For some reason this thread is still with me; maybe it's because I think politicians, as life forms, are one step below slugs.

Tonya Rieman has videos on YouTube, but she also wrote a book on body language where she talks quite credibly about the importance of picking the correct chair for yourself around a conference table.
If I were you I'd read it before the next meeting.

Twice in my life I was in meetings where the sole purpose of everyone else in the room was to intimidate me. They were ambush meetings.
In the first one the person who called the meeting seated me in a position somewhat to my advantage, probably due to his ignorance.
In the second one I seated myself correctly, maybe by instinct.

I know this stuff shouldn't matter, but it does.