Putting a GFI rec. on an Arc Fault circuit

[Pizza]

I dont do much residential, but has anyone ran into this situation....
Lets say you got a wet bar sink in a basement, thats in a family or rec room, and you have a few outlets on the wet bar countertop and one on the floor thats within 6' of the sink. Does a guy Arcfault and GFI protect those outlets or can he get away with just GFI protecting them?
I'm thinking I have to put in an arcfault breaker and then installing a GFI and line loading. seems like over kill to me, but I dont make the rules.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I dont do much residential, but has anyone ran into this situation....
Lets say you got a wet bar sink in a basement, thats in a family or rec room, and you have a few outlets on the wet bar countertop and one on the floor thats within 6' of the sink. Does a guy Arcfault and GFI protect those outlets or can he get away with just GFI protecting them?
I'm thinking I have to put in an arcfault breaker and then installing a GFI and line loading. seems like over kill to me, but I dont make the rules.

You have it correct. An AFCI has GFCI protection but it does not have enough to qualify for what is needed by the sink. Thus you need to install both.

 

[goldstar]

I may be a bit off the mark here but I was under the impression that you do not need to use arc-fault protection in areas that require GFI protection. However, one of the exceptions would be if you utilized and extended the 20 amp dining room circuit into one of your kitchen counter circuits. Then you would have to arc fault protect the dining room circuit at the breaker panel and then GFI protect the kitchen counter receptacles once you're in the kitchen. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In general you are correct but there is no rule that says if GFCI is required then an afci is not. Any area that qualifies for afci and also gfci needs to have them. You gave one example. The op gave another-- a basement family room with a wet bar. The family room requires AFCI and the wet bar requires GFCI so both must be used. I am sure there are a few other situations.

 

[kwired]

I may be a bit off the mark here but I was under the impression that you do not need to use arc-fault protection in areas that require GFI protection. However, one of the exceptions would be if you utilized and extended the 20 amp dining room circuit into one of your kitchen counter circuits. Then you would have to arc fault protect the dining room circuit at the breaker panel and then GFI protect the kitchen counter receptacles once you're in the kitchen. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.

Although you can use that as a general rule to help you remember where AFCI protection is needed but you also have to remember there will be places where that rule does not apply at all.

An outdoor receptacle will require GFCI protection but does not require AFCI protection. That is consistant with that rule, but if it is supplied by a circuit that otherwise requires AFCI then it will have both.

A laundry receptacle outlet depending on location may not require AFCI or GFCI protection.

 

[David A Engelhart]

I've always wondered what they mean when they say; "similar rooms or areas" in 210.12(A).
I see no reason why there can not be a GFCI type receptacle on an AFCI protected circuit, but a GFCI receptacle will not provide AFCI protection, and visa versa.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've always wondered what they mean when they say; "similar rooms or areas" in 210.12(A).

The NEC is full of those type statements. "As near as possible", "A structure- That which is built????, "such as in a clothes closet", etc

I see no reason why there can not be a GFCI type receptacle on an AFCI protected circuit, but a GFCI receptacle will not provide AFCI protection, and visa versa.

Agreed

 

[ActionDave]

What would happen if you ran a dedicated circuit to a wet bar and put it on a GFCI breaker? Would that be legal?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What would happen if you ran a dedicated circuit to a wet bar and put it on a GFCI breaker? Would that be legal?

Why would that change anything. If the wet bar is in the living room it would still need afci protection.

 

[ActionDave]

Because there is no AFCI device. I can GFCI protect an arc fault breaker protected circuit, but I can't arc fault protect a GFCI breaker, protected circuit.

What if I have some super cautious customer who wants GFCI protection starting from the panel? Do I have to tell him, "No"?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Because there is no AFCI device. I can GFCI protect an arc fault breaker protected circuit, but I can't arc fault protect a GFCI breaker, protected circuit.

What if I have some super cautious customer who wants GFCI protection starting from the panel? Do I have to tell him, "No"?

Well you can install an AFCI in the panel and directly below install a gfci dead front device. BTW, AFCI devices will be out by 2014 but they won't help with new wiring unless you use metal conduit or mc cable to the first outlet.

 

[ActionDave]

The way I see it, and seems like the way you see it, you can add GFCI to an AFCI protected circuit, and in some cases that may be required.

You can not use GFCI protection in place of AFCI.

I this interesting because GFCI is time tested and reliable. AFCI has no track record of doing anything other than detecting ground faults.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The way I see it, and seems like the way you see it, you can add GFCI to an AFCI protected circuit, and in some cases that may be required.

You can not use GFCI protection in place of AFCI.

I this interesting because GFCI is time tested and reliable. AFCI has no track record of doing anything other than detecting ground faults.

They do 2 different things. You can't really compare them even though afci has some gfci protection in it-- except for GE's AFCI

 

[ActionDave]

I know they are not the same. I know what they supposed to do differently, but I don't believe it.

Arc faults are no better a detecting an arc than my beagle. The ground fault protection in an AFCI does work, but at a higher threshold than a GFCI. So wouldn't the wires to my wet bar recept be safer if they were landed under a GFCI breaker?

 

[iwire]

Arc faults are no better a detecting an arc than my beagle.

And the evidence you have to support that is?

 

[ActionDave]

'Cause my beagle has a really good nose.

Find some evidence that they do what they say they do and I'll be easily persuaded.

I have some anecdotal evidence based on direct experience trouble shooting them and making some glorious blue arcs on the workbench at our shop. Never seen one trip because of an arc in the field or on the bench.