240 GFCI

[ceb58]

I am starting the trim out on a Baptistery for a church remodel. When we did the rough in all the info. I had was heater 240v 40 amp and 120v 2amp circulating pump. Now that the equipment has come in and the plumber has every thing install I have more info. The kit came with a 120v-24v transformer and a 50 amp rated DP contactor with a 24v coil. Their wiring diagram has the 24v running through the fill valve to a water level sensor through the high limit and thermostat in the heater back to the contactor. When it gets full the fill valve stops and the circ. pump and heater come on.
Now it shows the heater and pump running off of the contactor.It shows the hot for the pump taped off one leg of the heater. I am GFCI'ing both the 120v and 240v circt. and I know if I tried taping one leg of the 240v for the pump it would trip.
What I plane on doing is run my 120v GFIC circt. to the contactor and use L1 and T1 for the pump.
Then bring my 240v GFIC circ. to the contactor and just break one leg using L2 and T2 and take the other leg directly to one side of the element. See any problems with these GFCIs.

 

[hillbilly1]

I am starting the trim out on a Baptistery for a church remodel. When we did the rough in all the info. I had was heater 240v 40 amp and 120v 2amp circulating pump. Now that the equipment has come in and the plumber has every thing install I have more info. The kit came with a 120v-24v transformer and a 50 amp rated DP contactor with a 24v coil. Their wiring diagram has the 24v running through the fill valve to a water level sensor through the high limit and thermostat in the heater back to the contactor. When it gets full the fill valve stops and the circ. pump and heater come on.
Now it shows the heater and pump running off of the contactor.It shows the hot for the pump taped off one leg of the heater. I am GFCI'ing both the 120v and 240v circt. and I know if I tried taping one leg of the 240v for the pump it would trip.
What I plane on doing is run my 120v GFIC circt. to the contactor and use L1 and T1 for the pump.
Then bring my 240v GFIC circ. to the contactor and just break one leg using L2 and T2 and take the other leg directly to one side of the element. See any problems with these GFCIs.

As long as you bring the neutral from the load side of the 2 pole Gfi breaker, you should not have any problems with it tripping using that neutral, that being said though, the circulating motor should be fused down to help protect the circulating motor, but if it is part of the listed system, maybe not.

 

[ceb58]

As long as you bring the neutral from the load side of the 2 pole Gfi breaker, you should not have any problems with it tripping using that neutral, that being said though, the circulating motor should be fused down to help protect the circulating motor, but if it is part of the listed system, maybe not.

You have misunderstood. I am bringing 1- 15amp 120v GFCI circt. to the contactor with its own neutral for the pump. And 1- 40amp 240v GFCI circt. to the contactor with out a neutral for the heating elements.

 

[hillbilly1]

You have misunderstood. I am bringing 1- 15amp 120v GFCI circt. to the contactor with its own neutral for the pump. And 1- 40amp 240v GFCI circt. to the contactor with out a neutral for the heating elements.

Gotcha, but the manufacture is calling for one leg of the same circuit as the heating element to run the pump? The easy way out would be to use a single pole definte purpose contactor or a power relay with a 240 or 208 volt coil (don't know if you have three phase or single phase service) and break your 15 amp circuit through it. Either one is around 15-20 bucks.

 

[iwire]

There is no way I would modify a thing without written instructions from the manufacturer.

 

[hillbilly1]

There is no way I would modify a thing without written instructions from the manufacturer.

With todays litigous society, I agree. Lawyers love suing electricians because most jurys don't have a clue, electricity scares them. Easy money for them most of the time. Even if you do install it correctly and there is a problem, manufactures will flip it back on you if they can. Let's say the manufacture calls for the screws torqued to 30 inch pounds, you torque them to 29 or 31, a good lawyer can convince a jury that because you didn't torque down the screw to the proper torque, somehow the plantiff got shocked. It's sad common sense doesn't prevail anymore.

 

[ceb58]

There is no way I would modify a thing without written instructions from the manufacturer.

All in all I agree with what you are saying. But do you see it as I that if you tap off one leg of the 240v circt. for the pump the GFCI breaker will see an imbalance and trip. It will be Monday before I can talk to tech. support.

 

[stickboy1375]

All in all I agree with what you are saying. But do you see it as I that if you tap off one leg of the 240v circt. for the pump the GFCI breaker will see an imbalance and trip. It will be Monday before I can talk to tech. support.

Why would it trip? Would this be no different than suppling a hot tub with a 50a GFI breaker? As long as all the current returns the source you're good.


(EDIT) I'm guessing you didn't run a 3 wire correct?


Opps, this was obviously already discussed. carry on!

 

[kwired]

With todays litigous society, I agree. Lawyers love suing electricians because most jurys don't have a clue, electricity scares them. Easy money for them most of the time. Even if you do install it correctly and there is a problem, manufactures will flip it back on you if they can. Let's say the manufacture calls for the screws torqued to 30 inch pounds, you torque them to 29 or 31, a good lawyer can convince a jury that because you didn't torque down the screw to the proper torque, somehow the plantiff got shocked. It's sad common sense doesn't prevail anymore.

Hopefully I have a good attorney and he will want them to prove how much torque was applied. If he can prove 29 or 31 then who knows where it will go, but it is likely nothing will be easily proven. Most of the time there will be no evidence of whether it was correct torque or not, unless you have pictures, video, or witnesses that will testify.

All in all I agree with what you are saying. But do you see it as I that if you tap off one leg of the 240v circt. for the pump the GFCI breaker will see an imbalance and trip. It will be Monday before I can talk to tech. support.

That is why 2 pole GFCI breakers also have a line and load neutral connection. You have three conductors all passing through a current sensor if all current that leaves any one conductor returns on either or both of the other conductors the net fault current sensed is zero and it does not trip.

 

[stickboy1375]

That is why 2 pole GFCI breakers also have a line and load neutral connection. You have three conductors all passing through a current sensor if all current that leaves any one conductor returns on either or both of the other conductors the net fault current sensed is zero and it does not trip.

He didn't run a neutral with his heater circuit... thats his issue.

 

[kwired]

He didn't run a neutral with his heater circuit... thats his issue.

He also asked if he were to tap off one leg of heater circuit wouldn't the GFCI be unbalanced and trip. The answer is no if the neutral returns through the neutral terminal of the GFCI breaker.

I can see he may have a little dilemma if he does not have a neutral with the heater circuit. If he ran raceways he possibly can repull a neutral, if he ran cables he may have a problem.

 

[ceb58]

Its in a raceway I can pull a neutral in. I just want to make sure the GFCI doesn't trip out with the pump on one leg.

 

[masterinbama]

All in all I agree with what you are saying. But do you see it as I that if you tap off one leg of the 240v circt. for the pump the GFCI breaker will see an imbalance and trip. It will be Monday before I can talk to tech. support.

It won't see an imbalance. Current will either flow from hot to hot or hot to neutral or both.

 

[iwire]

All in all I agree with what you are saying. But do you see it as I that if you tap off one leg of the 240v circt. for the pump the GFCI breaker will see an imbalance and trip. It will be Monday before I can talk to tech. support.

I am not saying I would never modify something, but in this case all I can think of is the Pastor that was electrocuted in front of 800 parishioners due to faulty baptismal heater wiring. I would want to know with absolute certainty I was doing the right thing and I would also want to cover my rear.

News report
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/31/national/main995829.shtml

Details from investigation
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Tragedy_Strikes_Texas_Church.PDF

 

[hillbilly1]

I am not saying I would never modify something, but in this case all I can think of is the Pastor that was electrocuted in front of 800 parishioners due to faulty baptismal heater wiring. I would want to know with absolute certainty I was doing the right thing and I would also want to cover my rear.

News report
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/31/national/main995829.shtml

Details from investigation
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Tragedy_Strikes_Texas_Church.PDF

You should have seen the one I fixed a couple of years back, no ground fault protection, no ground, two open wires to a heating element in a "C" shaped copper tube, straight wired to a disconnect. Baptismal pool was a fiberglass shell. They were blowing the heating elements because they would forget to fill the pool up before they turned it on.

 

[ceb58]

I am not saying I would never modify something, but in this case all I can think of is the Pastor that was electrocuted in front of 800 parishioners due to faulty baptismal heater wiring. I would want to know with absolute certainty I was doing the right thing and I would also want to cover my rear.

News report
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/31/national/main995829.shtml

Details from investigation
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Tragedy_Strikes_Texas_Church.PDF

Agreed, pulled in a neutral today and completed the hook up. Now its a wait on the plumber to hook up the water in the basement and I can test the pump,heater and control valves.

 

[david]

Just a side note:

Did you happen to notice the location of rec. in relationship to the waters edge of this unit. Do any of the existing ones need GFCI protection.

 

[ceb58]

Just a side note:

Did you happen to notice the location of rec. in relationship to the waters edge of this unit. Do any of the existing ones need GFCI protection.

All of that is covered. But thanks for asking.