Reverse Polarity Oddity

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Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I talked to another contractor today who had a situation in an older home with reverse polarity throughout the entire house. He said he spent 10 hours over a few days dealing with poco and disconnecting everything to no avail.

Little background. The service was changed many years ago with a cutler hammer panel. In the last month I have run across 4 situations where the main breaker on these older CH panels would not shut off. I had one on my job that I install 15 years ago, another contractor had 2 of the same era and yet another EC had yet another defective one. Mine would not even go into the shut position- it would spring back, they had one that went to the off and there was still power and another guy had his go off then spring back to on in 2 seconds.

Now What does this have to do with the problem. Not sure it is all related because we never were testing the polarity at the other jobs, however when the EC went to turn his breaker off and test on the line side the main would not shut off. He shut all the branch circuits off and still had the reversed polarity.

He decided he had to change the main - did so- and the reverse polarity fixed itself. I suppose something in the breaker must have been shorting to ground a wee bit on the line side of the breaker and creating a false reading. Anyone want to try and explain that otherwise?

BTW- Our CH distributor claims CH warranties their breakers for life so I got mine free. The others didn't know about it but they are going back to get their money as they still have the old ones.
 
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K8MHZ

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Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
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Electrician
What do you mean by 'reverse polarity'?

Do you mean 'hot and neutrals reversed'? If so, I don't see how changing a main would affect that. Even if there were parts loose in a breaker, there aren't any metal paths from the inside of a breaker to the neutral or ground and there is no interruption of the neutral/ground that could be switched to a different leg. If the neutral is on the right side of a receptacle, nothing you can do to the main breaker will move it over to the left side.

If you do mean 'hot and neutrals reversed', how did you come to that conclusion? Using a plug in tester with little lights on it?

Did you actually test for voltage to neutral/ground to determine which side of the receptacle was actually hot?

He decided he had to change the main - did so- and the reverse polarity fixed itself.

Things don't fix themselves.
 
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Dennis Alwon

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I mean it showed reverse polarity with the plug in tester. Thoroughly checked everything- 120V each to neutral and 240 across.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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How did you check the voltage? Did you run a conductor to the neutral bar in the service and check, using a wiggy type tester, as well as a DVOM?
I don't know what he used- probably just a digital tester- The point of the story is the breaker must have been leaking and caused this phenom. I have never seen it happen. Changed the breaker and all was good.
 

Sierrasparky

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USA
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How does a breaker leak a little to ground?
If the breaker is carbon tracking I think under inspection you should be able to see that.
 

K8MHZ

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Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
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Electrician
That is what I mean- Isn;t that reversed polarity?

No. Polarity refers to the orientation of + and minus in DC. If polarity was reversed, it would show up as a negative voltage value and would not be respective of earth, and would be instantly shown on a regular old DVOM.

Reversing the hot and neutral will still show up as a positive voltage in AC. A simple meter check won't determine if the hot and neutral are reversed. The plug in testers rely on the third prong to be effectively grounded to determine if the hot and neutral are reversed. If the tester shows 'no ground present' it is unable to accurately determine which leg is hot and which is neutral. By the same token, if the ground is there, but not very good, the plug in testers can read erroneously. They will also read that a three wire receptacle is wired properly, when in fact it is fed with a two wire feed and the ground jumpered to the neutral at the back of the receptacle.

So, polarity is in reference to the direction of electron flow, not the relationship of one AC conductor to the other, which is connected to the earth.
 
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Dennis Alwon

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No. Polarity refers to the orientation of + and minus in DC. If polarity was reversed, it would show up as a negative voltage value and would not be respective of earth, and would be instantly shown on a regular old DVOM.

QWell nomenclature in the field is reverse polarity. If you read those tester I believe they even say polarity.
 

Joethemechanic

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Hazleton Pa
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Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Those testers read "polarity" in relation to the ground right?


Is this something you saw happen with your own 2 eyes Dennis? Or is this some kind of 2nd hand report from the field?
 
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Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Those testers read "polarity" in relation to the ground right?


Is this something you saw happen with your own 2 eyes Dennis? Or is this some kind of 2nd hand report from the field?

I talked with the guy for 30 minutes this morning talking about all the things he did. Nothing changed until he changed the main breaker then his woodhead read correct wiring-- I'll spare the use of the word polarity.
 

Joethemechanic

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Location
Hazleton Pa
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Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
I talked with the guy for 30 minutes this morning talking about all the things he did. Nothing changed until he changed the main breaker then his woodhead read correct wiring-- I'll spare the use of the word polarity.


Is the grounding ok in this building? I'm thinking the breaker was leaking a bit to ground. I wonder if there is a proper N-G bond. If there is no N-G bond and your grounding is only connected to a ground electrode there most likely not be enough current flowing to trip a breaker even though your grounding conductor could be at some potential way above ground.

For example, a 25 ohm ground will only flow 4.4 amps with a 120V potential to it.

Not enough to trip a breaker, but plenty enough to make the systems grounding conductor a lot hotter than it should be.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Is the grounding ok in this building? I'm thinking the breaker was leaking a bit to ground. I wonder if there is a proper N-G bond. If there is no N-G bond and your grounding is only connected to a ground electrode there most likely not be enough current flowing to trip a breaker even though your grounding conductor could be at some potential way above ground.

For example, a 25 ohm ground will only flow 4.4 amps with a 120V potential to it.

Not enough to trip a breaker, but plenty enough to make the systems grounding conductor a lot hotter than it should be.

Well I don't know if it is bonded but if it weren't bonded how would a leakage affect the readings in the house. I suspect the leakage but there must be a neutral to ground bond to cause those readings. As I stated I bet the leakage was very slight,
 

Hv&Lv

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Well I don't know if it is bonded but if it weren't bonded how would a leakage affect the readings in the house. I suspect the leakage but there must be a neutral to ground bond to cause those readings. As I stated I bet the leakage was very slight,

These cheap testers can cause more problems sometimes than they are worth. A multimeter is better. A hot/neutral reversed condition with these cheap home inspector grade testers can show up with a hot ground, something you probably had with a "leaking" main. My main concern here would be to check the ground connections rather than a hot/neutral reversed condition since the problem "fixed" itself when the main was changed out.
Check out this site, then throw that tester away. http://blog.broadcastengineering.co...circuit-tester-a-valid-tester-or-night-light/
 
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