Burning Wirenut

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joethemechanic

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Add a piece of lead in series with every phase conductor in every box, Make it of an alloy that melts when temperatures get too hot. When the lead melts, the circuit will automatically open

I think we should call it a "Too Darn Hot Fuse Thing" :lol:


Wait,,,,

maybe that should be a "Too Darn Hot Fuse Thing Circuit Interrupter" or TDHFTCI for short
 
Last edited:
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
iwire said:
I doubt that would be the case if we could go back to the 1970s, I bet GFCIs were hated just as much as AFCIs are now.
Click to expand...

Maybe better than what I was going to say:

Sierrasparky said:
I can't agree with you on that specific point.
You forget that we including I have issue with GFCI in some of the places they are required. I accept their accasional false tripping or even the fact they seem to get destroyed in the power brown outs and surges we have too often where I live.

The main point I am trying to emphisize is that I seriously doub't there was ever any cogent issue that a properly installed, maintained GFCI did not trip at the prescribed leve for which the device was rated and desigend for. I am not speaking of the occasional anomolies of defectively manufactured products.

In the case of the AFCI there appears to be a serious flaw in the specification and implematation of the devices. There may in fact be a specification that has no real world significance or application. I don't think this analogy could be related to the developement or implementation of a GFCI. Remember A GFCI is simply a current differentiator calculator. If it sees a difference at the set threshold it trips. Thats it. A AFCI is whole different animal. They have microprocessors and are way mor complex than AFCI detection.
Click to expand...

Joethemechanic said:
Add a piece of lead in series with every phase conductor in every box, Make it of an alloy that melts when temperatures get too hot. When the lead melts, the circuit will automatically open

I think we should call it a "Too Darn Hot Fuse Thing" :lol:


Wait,,,,

maybe that should be a "Too Darn Hot Fuse Thing Circuit Interrupter" or TDHFTCI for short
Click to expand...

Sprinkler heads in every box, The ground fault feature of the AFCI will trip when there is enough water for the fault:cool:
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
kwired said:
Maybe better than what I was going to say:





Sprinkler heads in every box, The ground fault feature of the AFCI will trip when there is enough water for the fault:cool:
Click to expand...

Yup .. Ca already requires fire sprinklers in any new single family residence even a 1,000 foot shack.
 
Joethemechanic

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
So these things are ineffective for series arcs? Is this a fact? Is this something we know from reading between the lines?
 
Joethemechanic

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Sierrasparky said:
They did that in the old days!:happyyes:



No not vetted yet but I would not be surprised if it's true and there may be more dirt. :?
Click to expand...


I grew up in a K&T house, with a K&T garage and 2 barns. The only place I ever saw high resistance failures were places where someone hacked something in.

But everything I see soldered in the field anymore is kinda on the poor workmanship side. Lot of contamination problems and quite a few cold solder joints.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would like to know where he is getting the information that the manufactures are removing GFP from AFCI breakers. GE is the only manufacture doing this. Siemens and Eaton even include indicator lights on there newest revisions that show if the breaker tripped from an Arc Fault or Ground Fault.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
curt swartz said:
I would like to know where he is getting the information that the manufactures are removing GFP from AFCI breakers. GE is the only manufacture doing this. Siemens and Eaton even include indicator lights on there newest revisions that show if the breaker tripped from an Arc Fault or Ground Fault.
Click to expand...

Does the Arc Fault light ever light up? Or better yet is it connected to anything that will make it light?
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
kwired said:
Does the Arc Fault light ever light up? Or better yet is it connected to anything that will make it light?
Click to expand...

I don't know. Sor far all of the trips I have seen are becasue of ground faults. I don't remember what happens when you push the test button.
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
curt swartz said:
I don't know. Sor far all of the trips I have seen are because of ground faults. I don't remember what happens when you push the test button.
Click to expand...

I would bet money you are correct. What I wonder know is if the Manufactures remove the GF protection from the device will they really work as well as they did before , detecting wiring issues. I really don't care if you have GF or not. My concern is what will do the job better. If better means GF is included the so be it. I'd rather spend hours troubleshooting a ground touching a neutral possibly by a nail now then years later after a fire.
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
i have to google NFIRS!!!!

i have to google NFIRS!!!!

don_resqcapt19 said:
NFIRS..National Fire Incident Reporting System. Yes there are some holes in this and the biggest is the last part of your statement.
Click to expand...

well i'm also a tad jaded, having been a FF

they jive me claiming i get the wire job, fire job, rewire job

anecdotals aside, i would like to know more about the NFIRS

(maybe send a dz dead roses.....)



That would take many more years to come up with given the few fires that the AFCI can be expected to prevent. If you apply the fire data, including the fact that 85% of the fires said to be of electrical origin, we could expect that since the adoption of the 2008 code that 1150 fires would have been prevented, assuming that the AFCI would be 100% effective in preventing all fires that are said to be of electrical origin. I did these numbers based on estimated housing starts prior to the downturn, so there would be even less fires to look at. There are an estimated 51,000 dwelling unit fires said to be of electrical origin each year. That would mean that the AFCIs could have been expected to prevent less than 3% of the total fires said to be of electrical origin, and assuming 100% compliance with the NEC, 100% adoption of the NEC, and 100% effectiveness of the AFCI.

I have seen nothing on the costs but it appears you need one of these devices at every point of connection. Even if they are cheap, it will add a lot of labor hours.
Click to expand...

best cost/benny argument yet Don

with one twist, the thermal wago (for lack of a better description) you see is not only a prototype, it's a concept that could assume an inclusive potential


~RJ~
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
curt swartz said:
I don't know. Sor far all of the trips I have seen are becasue of ground faults. I don't remember what happens when you push the test button.
Click to expand...

What does it do if it trips on a short circuit or overload? They are supposed to do that too.

Sierrasparky said:
I would bet money you are correct. What I wonder know is if the Manufactures remove the GF protection from the device will they really work as well as they did before , detecting wiring issues. I really don't care if you have GF or not. My concern is what will do the job better. If better means GF is included the so be it. I'd rather spend hours troubleshooting a ground touching a neutral possibly by a nail now then years later after a fire.
Click to expand...

We already had devices that trip during ground faults.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top