Installing 4" Remodel Cans

[Little Bill]

I've got a few questions concerning installing remodel cans. If you are installing them in a kitchen that has only a 4' light in the center of the room and that light is going to be removed, how do you get around the rule about a juction box being accessible? I need to get the power/switchleg from the existing light, there is no above access. If I put a juction box there it will not be accessible after the remodel.

What is the expected coverage area of a 4" recessed? The HO only wants two on one side of the kitchen, one on each side of the sink. Then she only wants three on the other side of the room above counter space and refrigerator, starting from over the stove that has cabinets above and ending at the refrigerator.

Any brand you prefer for remodel cans? I didn't have much luck with Halo 5" remodel cans getting the clips to lock in. I actually had to put screws in some of the clips. I don't want to go through that again.

Thanks

 

[jimport]

Without seeing the size of the room I will say that using 4" recessed will not give you the amount of light needed. The 4" may be fine for lighting the countertop, but the room will be dark.

 

[LEO2854]

I've got a few questions concerning installing remodel cans. If you are installing them in a kitchen that has only a 4' light in the center of the room and that light is going to be removed, how do you get around the rule about a juction box being accessible? I need to get the power/switchleg from the existing light, there is no above access. If I put a juction box there it will not be accessible after the remodel.

What is the expected coverage area of a 4" recessed? The HO only wants two on one side of the kitchen, one on each side of the sink. Then she only wants three on the other side of the room above counter space and refrigerator, starting from over the stove that has cabinets above and ending at the refrigerator.

Any brand you prefer for remodel cans? I didn't have much luck with Halo 5" remodel cans getting the clips to lock in. I actually had to put screws in some of the clips. I don't want to go through that again.

Thanks

All the remodel cans are like that so there is not that much difference.

 

[LEO2854]

I've got a few questions concerning installing remodel cans. If you are installing them in a kitchen that has only a 4' light in the center of the room and that light is going to be removed, how do you get around the rule about a juction box being accessible? I need to get the power/switchleg from the existing light, there is no above access. If I put a juction box there it will not be accessible after the remodel.

What is the expected coverage area of a 4" recessed? The HO only wants two on one side of the kitchen, one on each side of the sink. Then she only wants three on the other side of the room above counter space and refrigerator, starting from over the stove that has cabinets above and ending at the refrigerator.

Any brand you prefer for remodel cans? I didn't have much luck with Halo 5" remodel cans getting the clips to lock in. I actually had to put screws in some of the clips. I don't want to go through that again.

Thanks

Well once you have the holes cut for the new cans you will have access to the existing wires and you will be able to pull them to the new holes and make up your splices ,,


You cannot just box them and cover them up with a Sheetrock patch.

 

[KVA]

There is an NEC approved splice kit for romex that you can cover with a drywall patch.

I never used it but it's approved if I did I would wrap electrical tape around the connection for extra assurance.

here:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...53&langId=-1&keyword=splice kit&storeId=10051



Also go with 5" Halo for the kitchen

 

[Little Bill]

There is an NEC approved splice kit for romex that you can cover with a drywall patch.

I never used it but it's approved if I did I would wrap electrical tape around the connection for extra assurance.

here:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202204327/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=splice kit&storeId=10051



Also go with 5" Halo for the kitchen

Thanks, I didn't know about that splice kit. I'll have to work on the HO, as she's set on using the 4" cans.

 

[LEO2854]

There is an NEC approved splice kit for romex that you can cover with a drywall patch.

I never used it but it's approved if I did I would wrap electrical tape around the connection for extra assurance.

here:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202204327/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=splice kit&storeId=10051



Also go with 5" Halo for the kitchen

Looks like those are only good for 300 Volts so they are no good here if that is the case..

From the link..:blink:

Tyco Electronic's Non-metallic splice and tap kits provide a fast and reliable method for splicing or tapping 2 wire w/ ground and splicing 3 wire w/ground non-metallic cables up to 300 volts. They are designed and approved for use in rework within existing structures. Splice and Tap Kits also eliminate wire nuts for installation and replace the conventional method for adding a splice or tap for non-metallic cable without the need for exposed and unsightly junction boxes. NEC approved Article 334-40b.

• 3 Wire connection
• For Use On 12 or 14 AWG (300V) 2 wire NM cable with ground
• Eliminates junction boxes and wire nuts
• Contents complete one splice
• Fast & simple to install
• NEC compliant - article 334-40b, 2005 & 2008 NEC
• UL & CSA listed
• MFG Brand Name : Tyco Electronics
• MFG Model # : CPGI-208169-2
• MFG Part # : CPGI-208169-2

334.40 Boxes and Fittings.
(A) Boxes of Insulating Material. Nonmetallic outlet
boxes shall be permitted as provided by 314.3.
(B) Devices of Insulating Material. Switch, outlet, and
tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be
used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring
in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and
fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit
around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall
fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of
the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors
are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available
as many terminals as conductors.

If the conductors are good for 600 Volts, Then how can a connecter that is only good for 300 Volts be good for this issue?:blink:

334.104 Conductors. The 600-volt insulated conductors
shall be sizes 14 AWG through 2 AWG copper conductors
or sizes 12 AWG through 2 AWG aluminum or copper-clad
aluminum conductors. The communications conductors
shall comply with Part V of Article 800.

 

[Little Bill]

Looks like those are only good for 300 Volts so they are no good here if that is the case..

From the link..:blink:




If the conductors are good for 600 Volts, Then how can a connecter that is only good for 300 Volts be good for this issue?:blink:

I see your point, but I think they mean you can't splice cables that will have over 300V applied to them. I don't think you will ever be using NM 12 or 14 with anything more than 240V, and probably not more than 120V.

 

[LEO2854]

I see your point, but I think they mean you can't splice cables that will have over 300V applied to them. I don't think you will ever be using NM 12 or 14 with anything more than 240V, and probably not more than 120V.

In my opinion you would be better off getting those wires over to your closest Can light.

 

[Strife]

How a breaker that's good only for 240V be good for 600V wire? How about switches? receptacles?
Because the voltage applied is dictated by the service and not the wire. You can have 100K volts wire, but if the service is 240V that's what's what required for the devices to be.

If the conductors are good for 600 Volts, Then how can a connecter that is only good for 300 Volts be good for this issue?:blink:

 

[dhalleron]

Last year I removed some 4 inch recessed cans and replaced with 6 inch remodelers because the homeowner thought the small cans did not light up the basement party room area enough. You might be changing out to larger cans later.

 

[fridaymean]

I went with Juno 4" (50W par 20 halogen 130V lamps) remodel in my kitchen looked great when I was done. (I also installed xenon u.c lighting) There was a 4' X 4' fluorescent fixture in the center - huge and ugly - mid 80s. I installed three over one section of counter top that is about 8', then one on each side of the range. They are laid out properly (same distance from wall, etc). I also installed three in a line in the "walking path", once centered on the pantry door, one centered on the dinning room entry, and once centered on the hallway entry. The spacing worked out to equal, like they planned this might happen in the future. Looks very nice, and the wife is very happy with the result. I'd post a picture, but I do not know how.

 

[mrichi]

I couldn't agree more.....put a can in the vicinity of the removed center fixture and move on

 

[John120/240]

I always went with Halo because we got a decent price break, however the Juno

remodel cans you just need to use finger pressure to push in the retainers. Juno remodel

cans are the way to go. 4" vs 6" I would use two 4" cans over the sink & 6"

everywhere else. I have rigged up a demonstration with 4" & 6" cans with short

pigtails, a couple of trims, two different lamps & your step ladder.

 

[Little Bill]

I always went with Halo because we got a decent price break, however the Juno

remodel cans you just need to use finger pressure to push in the retainers. Juno remodel

cans are the way to go. 4" vs 6" I would use two 4" cans over the sink & 6"

everywhere else. I have rigged up a demonstration with 4" & 6" cans with short

pigtails, a couple of trims, two different lamps & your step ladder.

Is the step ladder for you or to put the demostration lights on?

 

[ritelec]

If I put a juction box there it will not be accessible after the remodel.

How many wires are going to the existing box? Can you cut out sections of the ceiling, reroute wires and patch the sections (spackle-paint).

Or use an inviso plate and leave the splice (junction) box alone.

 

[Little Bill]

How many wires are going to the existing box? Can you cut out sections of the ceiling, reroute wires and patch the sections (spackle-paint).

Or use an inviso plate and leave the splice (junction) box alone.

I haven't pulled down the existing light yet. I'm hoping it is just stapled at the light. Then I could just remove the staple and pull the wire back and hopefully over to one of the new holes.
What is an "inviso" plate?

 

[jaylectricity]

I haven't pulled down the existing light yet. I'm hoping it is just stapled at the light. Then I could just remove the staple and pull the wire back and hopefully over to one of the new holes.
What is an "inviso" plate?

It's just a blank plate, nothing special.



I think if you're already OK with patching the ceiling you might as well cut holes where you need them to get at the wires. You're hoping that you take down the light and there's one cable coming in from the switch. But you might have a few feed in and feed outs that just send a switch leg to the switch.

 

[ritelec]

It's just a blank plate, nothing special.

View attachment 6459

Alittle different than just a blank plate.

Note: if you go the inviso route.........they make a flatter, thinner metal one where plate screws to box (I believe the one in the picture). Thats the one one want.
They also make one in plastic type....there's a plastic fixure bar that screws to the box then a plastic round blank pushes into that bar. It works, but not as clean looking.

 

[svh19044]

If you follow the below advice, you will have enough holes in the ceiling where you should be able to fish that old wire to an appropriately located 4" light.

In a kitchen, with standard height ceilings of 8', you will need roughly (1) 4" 50w recessed light every 24" to 30" at the edges of the counter to get the appropriate working light on the counter top with an even spread.

I have been using 5" cans with 75w halogens for years now with PAR bulbs, and the newer 75w BR halogens are now used where a wider flood is wanted. Remember, a 50w par/r/br has HALF the lumen output as a 75w par/r/br. HALF. 1100 lumens on a 75w compared to 550 lumens on a 50w. That is significant, especially in a kitchen where an absolute minimum of 50 footcandles is needed for task lighting, and 75fc is where it should be. If you place the 4" cans ever 24", with a 550 lumen par/br, you will get roughly 55fc on the counter, and with good undercab lighting you can boost this to just over 70fc on the work surface. Other than sink lighting, I DO NOT recommend 4" line voltage cans in a kitchen.

Just the other day, one of the contractors I do work for asked to do a lighting layout for his kitchen, using old 4" cans that he had stockpiled. He seemed quite surprised that he needed 11 4" cans in his average sized kitchen along the perimeter of the counter. It's tough to grasp the idea that going from 75w to 50w cuts the lumen output in half.

As to what kind, I have never had problems with homeowner supplied Halo remodel recessed lights and their clips, but I use Juno and Lightolier. The Juno 4" cans have 2 clips compared to the Halo 4 clips, but they are the same style, just easier to lock in. Again, I have never had problems with either. You can get Lightolier roughly 4" cans in a different style, where the trim acts as the actual housing. There are three little anchors that you pull tight on a ring, loop them, and then slide the trim/housing up through. I like Lightolier, but their 4" step baffle trims are roughly $40, or nearly 4x's the price of the Juno/Halo 4" step baffles. Their larger sizes are the same price, but 4" is out of hand.

What exactly are the problems you are having with the locking clips on the Halo cans? Try pushing them in by hand, and then to lock them all the way in, use a thin blade screw driver and tap the top edge of the clip to push it the rest of the way in (if that is the problem you are having).