Poor grounding electrode???

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mjet

Member
Location
ferndale mi usa
Hi, I have a 120/240 200 amp underground service at my vacation home. The problem is there is stray voltage 30 volts on cold water sill cock outside the house. When using water and ground is wet in bare feet you get shock from fauct,not safe.The service is properly bonded and grounded.The area is all sand where the ground rod is driven and very dry. Connections clean and tight. Could this area need more ground rods to make a grounding mat because of poor soil conditions.It is a well with pvc casing so the only grounding electrode is driven copper rod 8 foot. I appears that the wet soil under the spicket is a better ground than driven rod when water is used.Could edison have a poor bond on pole transformer ??
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would bet the stray voltage is from the power company. Stick a probe in the ground and touch your panel enclosure- you will probably get a reading. Turn off the main and see if the voltage is still there. If so you know it is from the poco. If not poco's prob, shut circuits off one by one and see which one is causing the issue.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Hi, I have a 120/240 200 amp underground service at my vacation home. The problem is there is stray voltage 30 volts on cold water sill cock outside the house. When using water and ground is wet in bare feet you get shock from fauct,not safe.The service is properly bonded and grounded.The area is all sand where the ground rod is driven and very dry. Connections clean and tight. Could this area need more ground rods to make a grounding mat because of poor soil conditions.It is a well with pvc casing so the only grounding electrode is driven copper rod 8 foot. I appears that the wet soil under the spicket is a better ground than driven rod when water is used.Could edison have a poor bond on pole transformer ??

Are you sure the faucet is bonded?
 

mjet

Member
Location
ferndale mi usa
Yes, i have checked voltage from sill cock to damp soil and read 30 volts. The copper water system is bonded with a # 4. Checked each branch circuit to see if voltage disappeared one at a time. It will disappear if i turn the main off. This leads me to believe that the resistance is lower in the damp or wet soil under the sill cock rather than the driven ground rod in dry sandy soil.This is creating a path for any branch circuit current to flow instead of the bonded grounded path correct?Maybe creating a better ground mat trying to lower the resistance of the grounding electrode system is the solution.I have never run in to this.Right now we are creating a current flow when touching the sill cock int bare feet washing boat car ect. not good. Could the problem be the eccentric ground from utility be bad to or is it on my grounding electrode system?
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Someone I know was getting shocked when they step into their hot tub that was outside at grade level.

They have a detached garage with electricity feeding it underground (several circuits through rigid conduit).

Someone along the line had removed the ground wire where it terminates in the house. A hot in a junction box in the garage was grounding to a metal box.

Cleared short. Hooked up ground wire. No more shocks.

Just a little story to maybe help you in the right direction.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If it diappears when the main is off then the problem is in your home. There is likely to be some voltage on the plumbing but not 30V. Does it gradually dwindle as the circuits are turned off or does one breaker drop it all the way down?
 

mjet

Member
Location
ferndale mi usa
Depending on the load on the branch circuits at the time of testing determines the voltage was last fall i was trouble shooting it.Let me ask this, the unbalanced current from branch circuits returns to the grounded conductor to panelboard at that point it travels where to ground correct.does it flow to the utility source ground by way of eccentric neutral threw pole transformer to grounding wire down pole to ground.Or least path of resistance, or by way of grounding electrode system which consist of driven ground rod in poor soil. Im thinking to utility source by way of eccentric neutral?Even knowing that pole is 200 plus feet away.the grounding electrode system should only carry current in a ground fault situation right.So for some reason it seems branch circuit current returns through me at water sill cock when ground is wet and resistance is lower. Not trying to be sarcastic but resolve a un safe situation. I think it is any branch circuit i get some voltage from sill cock depending on what loads are on in house.Thats why when main is off there is no current flow. I thought at one time it could be a bad appliance leaking to ground not interrupting overload protection,but thats why im here to put more minds to work.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Yes, i have checked voltage from sill cock to damp soil and read 30 volts. The copper water system is bonded with a # 4. Checked each branch circuit to see if voltage disappeared one at a time. It will disappear if i turn the main off. This leads me to believe that the resistance is lower in the damp or wet soil under the sill cock rather than the driven ground rod in dry sandy soil.This is creating a path for any branch circuit current to flow instead of the bonded grounded path correct?Maybe creating a better ground mat trying to lower the resistance of the grounding electrode system is the solution.I have never run in to this.Right now we are creating a current flow when touching the sill cock int bare feet washing boat car ect. not good. Could the problem be the eccentric ground from utility be bad to or is it on my grounding electrode system?

Is the sill cock bonded to the copper water system?

Have you checked the voltage from a neutral conductor to the sill cock?

I doubt it's your grounding electrode system.
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
In a grounded single phase service, the current flows between the two hot phases. Any imbalance flows through the neutral back to the neutral bushing of the transformer. The neutral is grounded at the service and at the pole. If that path is a good low impedance path, there should be little or no current flowing through any other ground path back to the pole, since these altenate paths should have much higher impedance than the neutral conductor back to the grounded neutral bushing of the transformer. Since turning off your main breaker stops the voltage, have your utility come and test the neutral connection and bonding at the service panel and at the pole. A poor neutral connection at either end can cause exactly what you describe. Have them apply a "Beast of Burden" at your meter to test their connections. A visual inspection may not reveal the problem. If they say they don't know what a "Beast" is, then they need to get educated. For those who don't know, a Beast is a test unit that plugs into the meter socket and is also connected to neutral. It has two voltmeters and a couple of heating coils for load. After it's plugged in, you turn on the load to each hot leg individually. If voltage drops only on the loaded leg, you have a phase problem. If the loaded side goes down and the unloaded side goes up, you have a neutral problem.

Sorry if that's too much information, but I just LOVE this stuff!:p
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Do they play beast of burden by the stones when performing this test.

Thanks for the education.

Wonder if they even perform this test anymore.


Reminds me of the drop ball test.

What's the drop ball test? If your an optician you have to have this old gizmo on the premises to be legal.

It stands about 4 or 5 feet high, which you place a large steel ball on top and place a lens at the bottom.

The theory is you drop the ball on the lens and and should survive the drop ball test.

In fact it smashes the lens every time. But they have to keep one on premises.

Thanks again for the edumacation.
 
Location
michigan
frank

frank

you have two problems. grounding and bonding, and some equipment that has gone to ground. turn off the bkrs, one at a time until you find the circuit that is causing the stray voltage. i would check the electric water tank first. after you find the problem, bond all the gec, together to limit the potentil difference
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Here a a report from a case that happened in my area.
Several residents in a rural neighborhood were complaining of getting shocked around their yards and homes. The most noteworthy complaint was from a lady who was doing laundry in her basement utility room. The floor was wet, she was barefooted, and she was touching her washing machine when she got a bad shock. The utility Troubleman measured 12-16 volts at that location.
The area Troubleman did the usual Stray Voltage investigation and mitigation steps of checking all neutral-ground-bonds in the area and then checking all neutral splices on the primary feeder from that area back to the substation. No problems were found.
Engineering was then called for assistance. They observed that this neighborhood was served right off the 3-phase backbone from a substation only about 1 mile away. That and the magnitude of the measured voltage caused them to suspect a ground-fault as the cause of the problem, rather than the more typical high impedance neutral issues. With the help of two Troublemen, and a complaining neighbor who just happened to be a residential electrician, they began a typical search routine for a ground-fault. A temporary ground-rod (remote earth reference) was driven near an existing transformer ground of a complaining customer and a voltmeter was connected between the two grounds using clamps. The meter indicated 8-10 volts neutral-to-earth. They then coordinated with Dispatch and temporarily pulled the cut-outs on the complaining customers, one at a time, with no affect on the measured voltage.
The next step was to pull the cut-outs, one phase at a time on a nearby 3-phase tap. Two of the three had no effect, but pulling the third cut-out resulted in the measured neutral-to-earth voltage dropping to near zero. The cut-out was put back in service and the measured ?stray? voltage returned. That indicated that the suspected ground fault was on that phase somewhere on that tap. The Troublemen then pulled cut-outs on transformers down that tap until they found one that caused the measured voltage to drop to near zero when it was opened. That cut-out was closed back in and the meters served from that transformer were then pulled one at a time. This resulted in finding a meter for a mobile home that, when pulled, resulted in the measured ?stray? voltage dropping to near zero. The owner of that residence was identified by a neighbor who provided his phone number.
At that point the residential electrician neighbor, with the permission of the homeowner, opened the outdoor breaker box serving the mobile home and continued the trouble-shooting process to identify a single problematic branch circuit. He measured over 40 amps of load current on a 100 amp breaker, which was warm to the touch. That breaker served only a drop cord, which had been hard wired into the breaker box and was running exposed across the grass. It was traced across the yard, through a drainage culvert under the adjacent state highway, and down the river bank to a houseboat. It was being used to power a beer cooler refrigerator and a battery charger. The installation was obviously in violation of several safety codes. The homeowner was notified of our findings via phone call and the drop cord installation was removed from service via disconnection from the breaker panel. The voltage complaint problem was resolved. The homeowner then also mentioned that his most recent monthly electric bill had gone up nearly $300, and was happy that we had thus also resolved his high-bill complaint. The homeowner then inquired as to the proper procedure for getting an approved electric service installed to his house boat, by the utility.

The houses that initiated the complaint for the stray voltage were 200 to 300 yards away from the actual problem.
 
Don, I love that story (posted before?, looks familiar), partly for the actual problem and partly for showing that in the face of a real and measurable problem, you really have to run down every possibility until it's solved. Sure, you can skip some checks at first, but when those don't turn up the cause, you've got to try more until it's found. I wish more people both understood this and would take the time instead of fobbing it off on someone else.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I don't think I posted that before, but maybe. What really surprised me was the ~16 volts between the electrical grounding system and "remote" earth when the fault was 120 volts some 2 to 300 years away. It was not the electrical grounding system that was energized to a potential above earth. It was the earth itself that was energized. I still don't really understand how that can happen, I know the electrican involved and he told me that same thing that the utility engineer wrote in his report.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes, i have checked voltage from sill cock to damp soil and read 30 volts. The copper water system is bonded with a # 4. Checked each branch circuit to see if voltage disappeared one at a time. It will disappear if i turn the main off. This leads me to believe that the resistance is lower in the damp or wet soil under the sill cock rather than the driven ground rod in dry sandy soil.This is creating a path for any branch circuit current to flow instead of the bonded grounded path correct?Maybe creating a better ground mat trying to lower the resistance of the grounding electrode system is the solution.I have never run in to this.Right now we are creating a current flow when touching the sill cock int bare feet washing boat car ect. not good. Could the problem be the eccentric ground from utility be bad to or is it on my grounding electrode system?

You have a bad neutral someplace. It could be anyplace between your service and the POCO transformer. The more load there is on the neutral the worse this problem will be. You can get additional confrimation by putting some heavy 120 volt load on it and you will see unbalanced voltage at the service.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I don't think I posted that before, but maybe. What really surprised me was the ~16 volts between the electrical grounding system and "remote" earth when the fault was 120 volts some 2 to 300 years away. It was not the electrical grounding system that was energized to a potential above earth. It was the earth itself that was energized. I still don't really understand how that can happen, I know the electrican involved and he told me that same thing that the utility engineer wrote in his report.

I don't know Don, I just can't see this happening after all the experiments I have done, and the ones that even Gary had done and posted, I think there is more to this story that isn't known or not told (not that utility workers would hide anything) but with all the 3-D parallel paths through earth, the Earth has so much more ability to maintain the X-0 of the source then a hot has to raise the voltage, in every test of injecting current into earth always resulted in an indictable voltage once you are out of the Sphere of influence of the injecting site (20'-40' depending upon the soil resistance)

It doesn't really state what kind of fault it was at the end of that cord, but even if it was a line to Earth fault, to pull 40 amps would require a very great connection to Earth, 40 amps while not impossible would require a connection of 3 ohms or less from the supply including the long run of cable from the panel/service all the way back to the transformer, see how hard that would be?

The other thing is that the problem sounded like it was on another phase, while sure it could apply current to the MGN from any of the 3 phases, a 4800 VA load at 120 volts would be a .67 amp load at 7200 volts almost nil current to even explain how it caused a voltage drop on the MGN to this doesn't even explain my theory either:?

About the only thing that makes any sense is the soil in the area is a great insulator (increased sphere of influence to 300 yards), but even that would not explain the 40 amp load@120 volts.

Something is missing?:?

With this much voltage on the grounding it would seem like a primary problem as if this was on the secondary neutral to the house then this much voltage drop would be very noticeable with fluctuating lights getting bright and dim, this is why I have always said if lights are not dimming or getting brighter then voltages above 10 volts to earth, the problem is most likely on the primary side of the transformer, loose 10 volts at 7200 and you will never see it, loose it at 120 volts and it would be very noticeable.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
You are not quite taking all the measurements you need. I am with Kwired and K8. Once you turn your main breaker off and the problem disappears, it is not the POCO primary or the GES.

Underground service or overhead?

I did have a customer with the metallic siding energized. Actually everything was hot, including the panel enclosure. The GES had not been bonded directly to the Neutral bar and they were missing a small part. That little green screw.


Siding was making contact with the hot on an outdoor recept.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Wayne,
I think it is the real story with nothing left out. I talked with both the electrician and the engineer. The line to ground fault was at a boat dock. There were no issues with line to neutral voltage in the houses with the high grounding system to earth voltage. This was not the typical voltage drop on the grounded conductor type of stray voltage.
I am not sure if the fault was on the same primary phase as the one that served the houses with the problem, but the problem was only eliminated when the meter for the faulted circuit was pulled.

I agree that this is highly improbable, but I believe the report to be factual. One thing that may be a part is the soil in this area has a lot of silica sand in it and there is only a foot or two or soil on top of the sand rock.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
It is a well with pvc casing so the only grounding electrode is driven copper rod 8 foot. ?

Should there not be "2" anyway? Primary and supplemental? Grounding electrode "system"?


May or may-not be part of the problem (probably not)........but you may want to add another either way.


mjet? You getting these posts? Or waiting till you wash your car barefooted and get shocked again to be concerned?
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Should there not be "2" anyway? Primary and supplemental? Grounding electrode "system"?


May or may-not be part of the problem (probably not)........but you may want to add another either way.


mjet? You getting these posts? Or waiting till you wash your car barefooted and get shocked again to be concerned?

There has been a report of an odd smell and smoke drifting over Lake St Clair from the West.:D
 
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