Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Yes, re-modes are where I find them. I'm a musician and sound engineer, so I get into a lot of churches and bars where the wiring is very old and has been "upgraded" many time to accomodate newer sound and lighting systems that require a lot of power. Sometimes these upgrades are nothing more than an extension cord poked through a hole in the wall to reach another room. And sometimes they look safe, so my guitar player may be getting a big shock when I KNOW his amp is properly grounded because I did the maintenance myself. My 18 year old boy just found that his airconditioner outlet in his bedroom has been a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground for at least 30 years, and I've lived in the house 25 years. It tests as OK with a 3-light tester, but beeps using a VoltAlert. The entire chassis of the air-conditioner beeps like crazy when you get anywhere near it with a non-contact tester. Of course, on hardwood floor there's littel chance of contacting anything grounded, but that doesn't make it safe. If I had a guitar amp plugged into the other properly grounded outlet in the room and reached over the adjust the air-co with my free hand, that would be a big shock, I'm sure.

I believe the reason that many of you have never seen an RPBG outlet is that there's no easy way to test for them. Gear with a grounded plug seems to operate just fine when plugged into one, until you touch the chassis while touching something else grounded. Then you KNOW something is wrong. Here's a pic of 3-light testers in a Properly Grounded Outlet, a Correct Polarity Bootleg Grounded Outlet (CPBG) and a Reverse Polarity Booleg Grounded Outlet (RPBG). The lights all say the outlets are correctly wired, when we know they're not.

It's just a shame that the big box stores (Home Depot, Lowe's, etc...) sell every type of outlet and panel to anybody who has the money, and will also sell them a 3-light tester for $5 which they assume will tell them if their re-mod is safe. And it may not be.... Adding a non-contact tester into the situation will at least find more dangerously wired outlets than before (but certainly not all of them).

At least on your test board you used plastic covers, but I can't tell if its a plastic box too, I found a similar display in a big box home improvement store where their "Qualified" personel built a display showing the different miswiring problems, one of which was ground and hot reversed. This was a live display connected to 120 volts, they had used metal boxes and covers screwed to a wood backboard. since it was rubber cord jumpered between the boxes, there was not ground path at all until some unlucky person touched the box and something grounded! Unplugged the display and told the store manager. Went back a couple of weeks later, it was plugged back in and still ready to electrocute someone. Called corporate this time, and they instructed me to cut the cord off, and they would deal with the manager.
 

jmsokol

Member
Thanks, it might be OK as it is.

I'll let you know.

Did you build the display?

Yes I did. It's all plastic boxes and covers, and you'll note that the right most RPBG outlet has a nylon screw holding on the cover. If it was a metal screw it would be energized to 120 volts. I'm thinking about expanding this demo to include more possible mis-wiring conditions including open neutrals, swapped H-N, and open grounds. It's pretty cheap to build, and not hard to do. But I had to force myself to swap the wires on back of the outlets. It just feels wrong to do.

Here's another demonstration I built for showing RV hot skin detection on a table top. Yes, that's a metal VW micro-bus model hooked to a Variac with an isolated secondary. I'm sure all of you know this isn't a toy and very dangerous to use, but I'm extremely careful with it. The funny thing is that everybody who cuts off the ground pin of their appliance or amplifier's power cord is doing the same experiment on themselves. They just don't know when to be scared. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtT3te_XNBM&feature=plcp for me using Flash to show what happens when you touch a hot-skin RV and ground at the same time. Yes, I built "Flash" as well.
 

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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Yes, the boxes are all plastic, as are the covers, and I'm using a nylon cover screw on the "hot" RPBG outlet on the right.

I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid....

Excellent stuff!!!

Have you ever considered becoming a ham radio operator? I'll bet you would have a Field Day......which, BTW, is a real event. It is nationwide and it is this weekend.

http://www.arrl.org/field-day
 

jmsokol

Member
Excellent stuff!!!

Have you ever considered becoming a ham radio operator? I'll bet you would have a Field Day......which, BTW, is a real event. It is nationwide and it is this weekend.

http://www.arrl.org/field-day

A few of my buddies are Ham Radio operators and one is a radio station engineer who climbs live towers and such. Perhaps when some of my projects slow down a bit I'll consider it. I took an online test and aced all the electronics questions, but of course I would have to study all the legal stuff about allowed frequencies and power, etc...

It would be fun since I already know a lot about RF and was steeped in tube theory as a kid. I was also certified for military grade soldering back when I built nuclear missile guidance systems (no kidding)... It would be a real kick to rebuild an old Hammerlund or Hallicrafters set.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Do you do many re-mods?

That is where I find them. And, pray tell, how would a device with a 3 wire cord be able to distinguish between a proper and a bootleg ground?
I did a lot of remodels and service calls in the past. I was refering the bootleg ground in the original post where the ungrounded conductor was connected to the green and white screws.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I did a lot of remodels and service calls in the past. I was refering the bootleg ground in the original post where the ungrounded conductor was connected to the green and white screws.

I may see more terrible stuff than you for a couple reasons. One, I love troubleshooting and get to see some pretty whacky stuff. The other may be due to the area and it's economy, causing many DIY installations, few of which are pretty AND proper.

We have K&T everywhere. It's common to see the hot and neutral reversed, since both conductors are the same color which is best described as nasty. On occasion someone gets the wise idea to connect the third spot to something and had probably seen someone else do it with a properly 'polarized' receptacle.

There is a hardware store just north of here that still stocks ceramic tubes for K&T. Our local Lowes stocks cleat type light sockets, the kind that are just nailed to a surface and have both hot and neutral terminals exposed.
 

SGrockets

Member
Great posts

Great posts

I have been through a lot of this stuff in the past.
I never realized that the three light tester would read that way.
Thanks for bringing this up.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I have been through a lot of this stuff in the past.
I never realized that the three light tester would read that way.
Thanks for bringing this up.

Welcome to the forum.

Stick around. There is much here to be learned and from the finest minds in the trade. I'm not kidding, either.

But if I WAS kidding, I would say, 'There is much to be learned here from the finest minds in the trade and Bob'.

:p

--- Bob, iwire, is one of the moderators here. Some of us just can't resist picking on him.....:eek:

Again, welcome.
 

jmsokol

Member
I may see more terrible stuff than you for a couple reasons. One, I love troubleshooting and get to see some pretty whacky stuff. The other may be due to the area and it's economy, causing many DIY installations, few of which are pretty AND proper.

FYI: Here's a pic of a piece of a sound interface (a DI Box) that was blown up when plugged between a mixing console and a powered speaker. This was in a church where a volunteer had rewired the stage outlets with grounded receptacles. By accident (and ignorance) one of the stage outlets was wired as a RPBG which made the gear chassis hot. Interestingly, there's a audio isolation transformer in this box that will easily withstand 200 volts common mode, so if the switch on the side was flipped to "open" the mixer and speaker would operate just fine, even though the powered speaker's chassis was sitting at 120 volts. However, sound techs routinely flip these "ground-lift" switches to check for least hum, and when he flipped it to ground that little white 22 gauge wire became a fuse and burned up, but not before it blew out the electronics in the first speaker (cost = $1,000). The sound crew was baffled and plugged in a second new speaker out of the box, which then blew up that speaker (another $1,000) and the digital mixing board (cost = $6,000). So all told they lost over $8,000 worth of gear, in addition to the little $50 DI box I show below.

Would have been a lot cheaper for them to hire a licensed electrician who knew what he was doing. But churches are always using volunteer staff, and you often get what you pay for, which is this case their free volunteer cost them $8,050. Lucky nobody was killed. I'll fill you in on the Baptismal Pool electrocution death of the preacher in Waco Texas later.
 

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jmsokol

Member
Just got this email from a musician on my NoShockZone site. I told him to get an electrician in there immediately since this could kill someone at their next rehearsal.

"I'm in a small band and we have recently moved practice to my spare room that was converted from a garage. While standing bare foot on concrete floor we are receiving small tingle shocks from instruments. While standing on a rug or wearing shoes no problems. There is no hum in the equip and I have never had any problems in this room until i pulled up the carpet. This is an older construction and does not have GFI outlets. Do I have a big problem or should we just wear shoes."

Again, musicians are so used to being shocked on stage that they think it's a matter of degree. Of course a little shock could easily be followed by THE BIG SHOCK/ELECTROCUTION so don't want mess around with it. Wear shoes indeed!!!!

This is why we need to educate the public that shocks from appliances and instruments are NEVER OK.
 

jmsokol

Member
Just got this email from a musician on my NoShockZone site. I told him to get an electrician in there immediately since this could kill someone at their next rehearsal.

"I'm in a small band and we have recently moved practice to my spare room that was converted from a garage. While standing bare foot on concrete floor we are receiving small tingle shocks from instruments. While standing on a rug or wearing shoes no problems. There is no hum in the equip and I have never had any problems in this room until i pulled up the carpet. This is an older construction and does not have GFI outlets. Do I have a big problem or should we just wear shoes."

So if you got this service call tomorrow, just exactly how would any of you proceed to diagnose the problem? I'm really curious as to what gear you would bring and how you would begin testing.

I know how I would do it... I want to know how YOU would do it. Thanks in advance.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
So if you got this service call tomorrow, just exactly how would any of you proceed to diagnose the problem? I'm really curious as to what gear you would bring and how you would begin testing.

I know how I would do it... I want to know how YOU would do it. Thanks in advance.

A simple extension cord plugged into a known good properly wired receptacle can make a great trouble shooting tool in finding a RPBG receptacle or any reversed polarity receptacle in a 2-wire system, while voltage sensors or "Tic-Tracers" as some may call them can have there place in a tool box we must keep in mind they have there limitations and these must be fully understood, as they do tend to produce many false positives that can throw off even the best trouble shooter if you don't understand how they function here are some points to ponder:

Voltage sensors can chirp on a conductor that is not even connected to any other conductors but is close enough to a live conductor for enough capacitive coupling to put a ghost voltage on it, it can also say there is a voltage on a cabinet or case just because there is no bond to the case by the same problem, and because of this should not be used by itself to verify the present of voltage without also using a low impedance meter such as a wiggy or a loaded DVM.

The most reliable method I have found is the extension cord to a known good receptacle or even to Earth.

I too am a certified sound tech and before Electro-Voice was bought out held a contractors certificate to install Electro-Voice PA systems spent many hours up at the Buchanan, Michigan plant going through their seminars to get it so I could purchase directly from them, I'm very impressed with your understanding of many of the problems with sound systems and how electrical problems can make for a bad show (most time they rare there ugly head right in the middle of the show no fun)

I have installed many PA/DJ systems in clubs only to find that the place was wired by any drunk who says they know how to do it and will work for drinks, some of the horror story's I can tell would make many on here run for cover only to have this type of wiring that in many cases been in place for years be cause it is so simple to cut the ground off or like you said many take light shocks as a norm in these kind of places and nothing ever gets done till some one dies or is badly hurt.

While I will agree with Don that RPBG is not a common find in a dwelling it happens and in my career I have run into it twice, in clubs and bars well more time than I should have, both times in a dwelling were a receptacle installed in a garage one for a refrigerator and the other a freezer, even taking the receptacle apart wasn't a clue as who ever installed the circuit ran back under the house which only had old cloth covered romex and tied both the new neutral and EGC to the hot because the wire was so old you could no longer tell which was which.

First thing I did was get a 100' extension cord off my truck and a tap receptacle and run it to the main service panel which was on the other end of the house in a bedroom and made a temporary tap right at the main panel so I would know how it was wired, using this cord and my test meter (Ideal Volt-Con) it confirmed my suspicion that both the neutral and the EGC were hot, using a wire tracer I followed the wire back under the house to a octagon box where I found the mistake, they had also reversed the polarity of several livingroom receptacles and two lights that was also coming from that box when they were putting the connections back together, what amazes me is this little old lady wasn't killed as this work was done a few years before and it was the first time she ever went to get something out of it without any shoes on, and the fact they had no grand children that could have been hurt or killed by this.

But in the bar's and clubs anything goes and I have learned to be on the lookout as any one working in them should for shoddy work, I tell them right up front if I find any dangerous wiring it will be fixed or I can't continue as the liability is just too great.

I made a post in another thread "Audio Hum" that most hums in audio systems are cause by current on the grounding, while this can occur in a NEC compliant wiring and I gave the reason in most cases its because the wiring is not compliant.

While I had always kept in my stage tool box sets of 1 to 1 simple matching transformers or balaunes in about every configuration to get a show out of a jam (the show must go on sort of speak) but afterwords I made sure that the owner fully understood the dangers of using the grounding or having even un-intentionally grounded neutrals and or other problems that could come back and cost him dearly if it were to cause someone to get hurt of killed, I always left it up to them whether or not they wanted me to look at it or someone they know as they are paying the bill, but many times I would get the job, and what I find many time is where someone just missed wired a cord end and swapped the neutral and EGC but I would also find many violations that would take way more typing then I wish to type on here.

Over the years I have made many post on here of these problems and many solutions to how to find them, but a good knowledge in electrical theory is a must to understand that current takes all paths even the nice little shield that most audio cable has running with it, and since it is referenced at both ends it will capacitive couple this 60hz into the signal wire and since 60hz is right in the audio spectrum of that amplifier, it does what it is designed to do it amplifies it.

Why we haven't got away from un-balanced shielded audio cable that references the EGC at both end is beyond me, and yes it can be done, isolated shielding has been done for many years in some industries and has been taking a hold in the Data area as a few have started to realize we don't need to reference Earth to make things work, but then if they did we would not be finding all these grounding problems that audio equipment seems to find very well.

Ok fingers need a break;)
 
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jmsokol

Member
You have a problem, don't wear shoes

You have a problem, don't wear shoes

Just got this email from a musician on my NoShockZone site. I told him to get an electrician in there immediately since this could kill someone at their next rehearsal.

"I'm in a small band and we have recently moved practice to my spare room that was converted from a garage. While standing bare foot on concrete floor we are receiving small tingle shocks from instruments. While standing on a rug or wearing shoes no problems. There is no hum in the equip and I have never had any problems in this room until i pulled up the carpet. This is an older construction and does not have GFI outlets. Do I have a big problem or should we just wear shoes."

I received the following email from the kid (above) who wanted to wear shoes to stop getting shocked from his guitar while standing on concrete.

Thanks again for your help. Electricians just left... they found that I did have an open ground and have a plan on how to fix it with minimal financial pain. $250 dollars and I'll have a safe to code band room by tomorrow afternoon.

A $250 repair to find and fix an open ground sounds about right to me. I'm glad the kid was curious enough to ask about it. Sad thing is, many musicians accept getting shocked on stage, as long as it's just a "tingle".
 

jmsokol

Member
Excellent post. Take a break, heaven knows you earned it.

An extension cord plugged into a known, correctly wired receptacle and a wiggy is worth as much as every other tester combined.

I guess sometimes the old solutions are the simplest. And certainly that's the best troubleshooting method to figure out what's really wrong with an outlet. However, you can't expect an inspector to drag an extension cord and solenoid tester around to every outlet in a renovation. I still contend that adding a NCVT to a 3-light tester check is a good way to find rouge RPBG outlets with a hot ground/neutral. That's when you go back to the service panel or known-good outlet with an extension cord and sort out the problem.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Fixed this problem just the other day at a residence. The woman's refrigerator was shocking her when she touched it and the stove. She had just bought the fridge and was positive it was in the wiring, which it was.


He husband came home about the time I was finishing and settling up the bill.


His first words were I'm glad it was not the cord on the fridge again, the appliance guy charged me $175 for a new cord and a service call on the old one.


I asked if he knew what the guy had actually done and he produced the 10 year old bill that clearly stated the appliance guy had removed the three wire cord and replaced it with a two wire one.

They were not getting shocked anymore.. and figured he must have fixed something. Funny the next new refrigerator also has a bad cord though.

Yes, re-modes are where I find them. I'm a musician and sound engineer, so I get into a lot of churches and bars where the wiring is very old and has been "upgraded" many time to accomodate newer sound and lighting systems that require a lot of power. Sometimes these upgrades are nothing more than an extension cord poked through a hole in the wall to reach another room. And sometimes they look safe, so my guitar player may be getting a big shock when I KNOW his amp is properly grounded because I did the maintenance myself. My 18 year old boy just found that his airconditioner outlet in his bedroom has been a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground for at least 30 years, and I've lived in the house 25 years. It tests as OK with a 3-light tester, but beeps using a VoltAlert. The entire chassis of the air-conditioner beeps like crazy when you get anywhere near it with a non-contact tester. Of course, on hardwood floor there's littel chance of contacting anything grounded, but that doesn't make it safe. If I had a guitar amp plugged into the other properly grounded outlet in the room and reached over the adjust the air-co with my free hand, that would be a big shock, I'm sure.

I believe the reason that many of you have never seen an RPBG outlet is that there's no easy way to test for them. Gear with a grounded plug seems to operate just fine when plugged into one, until you touch the chassis while touching something else grounded. Then you KNOW something is wrong. Here's a pic of 3-light testers in a Properly Grounded Outlet, a Correct Polarity Bootleg Grounded Outlet (CPBG) and a Reverse Polarity Booleg Grounded Outlet (RPBG). The lights all say the outlets are correctly wired, when we know they're not.

It's just a shame that the big box stores (Home Depot, Lowe's, etc...) sell every type of outlet and panel to anybody who has the money, and will also sell them a 3-light tester for $5 which they assume will tell them if their re-mod is safe. And it may not be.... Adding a non-contact tester into the situation will at least find more dangerously wired outlets than before (but certainly not all of them).
You need to make a tester for these music guys to use that has a fourth lead to be connected to a known ground. Part of the problem though is teaching them to understand just what a known ground may be, not all metal objects are grounded, building steel isn't always readily accessible in a finished building, metal water piping may only be short section not required to be grounded, ...
 

jmsokol

Member
4-Light Outlet Tester?

4-Light Outlet Tester?

They were not getting shocked anymore.. and figured he must have fixed something. Funny the next new refrigerator also has a bad cord though.

You need to make a tester for these music guys to use that has a fourth lead to be connected to a known ground. Part of the problem though is teaching them to understand just what a known ground may be, not all metal objects are grounded, building steel isn't always readily accessible in a finished building, metal water piping may only be short section not required to be grounded, ...

Exactly right.... and nothing exists like what you describe.

In fact, what got me going on the 3-light tester problem was that I was thinking about building a 3-light tester using 100-watt light bulbs to load the H, N and G wires a bit (to prevent reading hi-z grounds as good) and then noticed from the schematic they can't identify RPBG outlets. I'm really tuned into bootleg grounds with reverse polarity since I just remodeled the kitchen in my 1926 built house, and a lot of the wiring was sill K&T. I'm removing all the K&T room by room as I re-mod and running new NM wire back to the service panel, which I'll update sometime this fall. But in the meantime, I've found many bootleg grounded outlets in my house, which were most likely installed by "the TV guy" who owned it 30+ years ago. About 20% of these bootleg grounds were reversed polarity, at least one was in the kitchen without a GFCI. Yikes!!!!

I've seen this exact sort of thing in the bars and churches I've played and engineered sound in over the last 40 years or so, but never had to chance to tear any walls open. But now I have examples all over my house for testing, and as I open up the walls for the re-mod get see what was really done. Sort of a test lab in my wife's kitchen, which she was not too happy about during the re-mod, but now that it's done she's very happy with it, especially when I explain the safety aspect.

What would make the most sense for a quick and better 3-light outlet tester would be for a manufacturer to install an NCVT inside a 3-light outlet tester connected to its ground pin. It would capacitively couple to the sides and pick up the ground plane of the person holding the tester. That will give you a 4th light (and beeper) that would indicate when the outlet ground/neutral was hot. As you surmise, nobody is going to run a 4th lead to a known ground, unless they're being paid to do it (as in an electrician).

I'm guessing somebody could build and sell this 4-light outlet tester in the $25 range (or even cheaper) since it's just a $5 neon tester married to a $15 NCVT. I've been studying Outlet Testers and Ground Loop Impedance Testers from every manufacturer I can find, and have never seen anything like it, but a 4-light outlet tester that references ground via a NCVT is something a sound tech or musician could be taught to use (I think).

Any thoughts or feedback on this?
 
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