I too do not see the point; other than following code. The code is slowly becoming , DIY. When I started, if you saw a 10/2 wg on a 30A breaker home run or 10/2 wg into a water heater you kinda think 220Volt or meter it. If you see a white wire nutted with black, red, at a switch or any where think switch leg untill you find what it is.
black tape on white wire
- Thread starter ufer
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I too do not see the point; other than following code. The code is slowly becoming , DIY. When I started, if you saw a 10/2 wg on a 30A breaker home run or 10/2 wg into a water heater you kinda think 220Volt or meter it. If you see a white wire nutted with black, red, at a switch or any where think switch leg untill you find what it is.
I would not classify the NEC as a tool equivalent to a cordless drill. I think that's quite a stretch.
I think it is one of the products of an industry that is supported by legislature, which is supported and instigated by the industry.
I also think it would not have to be as expensive as it is. $80 bucks in paperback???
come on ... most of it is a re-run.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
How about it is just damn (didn't think that this was over the top as to language) workmanlike to show whoever follows you what you did?
Ever been PO'd because you had no clue as what was performed before you?
Ever did a service change and had to remember what was 110 and 220?
Ever been PO'd because you had no clue as what was performed before you?
Ever did a service change and had to remember what was 110 and 220?
re- marking the white wire in a 10/ 2 romex ???
None of those things you listed seem to me to be anything that even a marginally competent electrician should not be able to handle. There is nothing difficult about any of those things that marking the white wire in a 10/2 romex is going to provide any great clarification.
And yeah the "damn" was unnecessary... the point is just not that important.
Whatever....
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Yeah, I get a lot of surprised inspectors when I pull out a code book that actually looks used, I like to find out right there if I have mis-interpreted something, or whether I was actually right. I don't have to do it very often though, most of the time I run across pretty good inspectors. ( I did have one ask me " Off the record, I'm wiring my own house, what kind of wire do I need to use for switched outlets?") :lol:
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I did not mean to equate it to the perfomance of a drill. I meant to equate the cost of the two items.
The NEC costs you $80 every three years, how much do you spend on other tools in a three year period?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I agree.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I agree again.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Anybody that had an opinion I value would not complain.
No. About a third of my working days are spent doing that. Truth is it is something I enjoy.
Done many service changes. Never had a problem with it. For one thing if the circuit is 220 most likely the wires are close in length. Aren't you the guy who said he could trim out a house with none of the wires identified and when the power was turned on it would work? And you can't figure this out?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Yep thats me!
Yes I love troubleshooting.
I just like that those who follow me say "that's d*** fine work!".
Every aspect of life is full of people trying to weasel their way into getting a piece of the pie. It is my decision what I buy.... until it is legislated.
How about this reason........
I sent a crew to do a service upgrade on an existing house, there were a mix of 120 volt and 240 volt circuits in the panel with some of the 240 volt circuits being 12/2 NM cable feeding baseboard heaters. None of the whites were re-identified. When my crew unhooked all of the wiring they did not mark them either (their mistake, and I doubt they ever make it again). They just set aside in a bundle all of the 240 volt circuits seperated from the 120 volt ones. They reterminated all of the breakers and energized at the end of the service change but got one of the 120 volt circuits mixed into the 240 volt bundle. They thus energized the customers refrigerator circuit to 240 volts. They discovered the error and corrected it but it was to late. This one cost me a $1200.00 refrigerator. The entire service change was only a little more than $2K so we lost money that day.
fmtjfw
Senior Member
- Location
- Fairmont, WV, USA
Rules, we don't need no stinking rules.
Rules, we don't need no stinking rules.
At least here in West "by God" Virginia, you need an electrician's license to do electrical work. [The exception being that you can burn down your own house or factory without benefit of a license.] You have to pass a test based on the NEC. The state fire marshal administers the test. The NEC is adopted as part of the state building code and, horror of horrors, you are expected to follow it. Under many circumstances your work is inspected for compliance with the NEC.
So how do you do all of that and not own a copy of the NEC?
I guess the only way is to trust your own opinion over collected wisdom (and occasional lack of reason) that has accrued of the 100 or so years the NEC has been in existence. :happysad:
Perhaps a little to much venting, but I'm tired of hearing one (or a few) man's opinions, without much basis other than gee I'm so smart I don't need reminders in the form of 1 inch of tape and any anyone who does isn't a real electrician.:rant:
It reminds me of some computer programmers I knew who said "this jumbled mass of earthworm castings is understandable (to me, today) and I see no reason to add comments to explain it or to follow agreed upon coding conventions." In my 30+ years as a software engineer and software architect, I held such people in less and less respect as I got older and wiser.
Rules, we don't need no stinking rules.
At least here in West "by God" Virginia, you need an electrician's license to do electrical work. [The exception being that you can burn down your own house or factory without benefit of a license.] You have to pass a test based on the NEC. The state fire marshal administers the test. The NEC is adopted as part of the state building code and, horror of horrors, you are expected to follow it. Under many circumstances your work is inspected for compliance with the NEC.
So how do you do all of that and not own a copy of the NEC?
I guess the only way is to trust your own opinion over collected wisdom (and occasional lack of reason) that has accrued of the 100 or so years the NEC has been in existence. :happysad:
Perhaps a little to much venting, but I'm tired of hearing one (or a few) man's opinions, without much basis other than gee I'm so smart I don't need reminders in the form of 1 inch of tape and any anyone who does isn't a real electrician.:rant:
It reminds me of some computer programmers I knew who said "this jumbled mass of earthworm castings is understandable (to me, today) and I see no reason to add comments to explain it or to follow agreed upon coding conventions." In my 30+ years as a software engineer and software architect, I held such people in less and less respect as I got older and wiser.
Everybody screws up once in awhile. If you don't, my hat is off to you and I will bow down to Mr. Perfect right now. The point was "If this rule had been followed.... this would not have happened" not that "my guys screwed up". Almost every rule in that book is designed to prevent shock hazard or prevent a screw up from happening.
Think about this one... do you really think it is necessary to post your building color code for buildings with multiple voltages. Obviously an electrician should be clued in when we walks into an electrical room and sees transformers, etc. that there are multiple voltages there. The OP simply asked who was right on his inspection ( (His inspector was correct)and now it has turned into a debate on why the rule is there and whether we are real electricians or not if we don't know enough to recognize what should be obvious.....geez
I see nothing wrong with debate or questioning rules, and I do in fact think there should be a level of competence where some things should be obvious.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
If I came over and wired your home, would it not be nice if you could 'just look' at my work and know where things are going rather than having to guess.
How about I don't mark the panel because everyone sould know that the 30 amp breaker goes to the dryer, wait maybe it goes to the hot water tank?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I had an inspector that decided to use one of those on the white wire at a water heater disconnect. I had to tell him it was a 120 volt water heater and it is supposed to be white. (He knew this, he just did not confirm whether or not it was a 120 or 240 volt circuit before assuming it was 240)
To protect the ignorant:slaphead:
I have never been confused about whether or not a wire attached to a breaker was grounded or not. At the load end - sometimes it is questionable - that is why you read nameplates, use meters, etc. I have also seen neutral conductors that were nicked and repaired with black tape - I suppose that is a violation, better make that repair with white tape. Same in a junction box where you have several black wires and one white under a wire nut - I never wondered if that white was grounded or not - first thing that comes to mind whether it is marked or not is that it must be going to a switch.Confusion!
Sorry, to prevent confusion!
You will not be seeing as many white wires used in switch legs anymore now that we are required to have a neutral conductor at most switch locations.
Again, if done properly (except for the marking part) I can't ever recall not figuring out that a white wire was not a neutral. There are many non electricians that don't know any better whether it is marked or not so we are not even doing this for those people.
Ever mark things before you take them apart?
exactly.
that was my entire point .... It's 10/2 attached to a 2 pole breaker..... Who is in that panel who doesn't know what's going on there?
I never really expected to get into a big hoo-haw about it. It's not that important to me. It's just that if I express a questioning or dissenting opinion about something ( that I would like to believe comes from being capable of informed, independent thought ) somebody gotta put on the big, indignant huff about it; like I'm some sorta cretin.
And I hate to let it look like I was silenced about it by somebody who "really told me".
Same thing with the code book price. A guy makes a big point of so many guys out there who don't have code books in the truck...
Sure there are illiterate goofs out there, but I think it's mainly because the code book costs so much ...Who couldn't use the 80 bucks for something else?
The cost of a code book is no excuse.
It is part of the cost of doing business.
If you don't have a code book and don't know how to use it and work in an area that follows it, you shouldn't pretend to be an electrician or electrical contractor.
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