black tape on white wire

[Gac66610]

Not quite the same. Is there one manual that works for all cars?


When will we have the day when a homeowner has electrical problems, calls a repair company, they come out and plug in a diagnostic machine into a port near the main panel or meter socket and it will tell them what is wrong and where to go to find the defective equipment?

Same goes for my use of NEC. Outside of using ampacity tables, raceway fill tables, motor current tables, and a few other items like that (and even some of the most common used parts of those tables I have memorized) I don't have to open the NEC for everything I do. But I do know how to find what I need when I run into something I don't know or am not quite sure about.

Wouldn't that be nice:thumbsup:

I rarely opened my code book, mainly when I was studying for tests, now that I am a member here I open it all the time when an article# is posted

 

[jaylectricity]

In terms of not marking switch leg whites in MA, how bloody expensive is 1 inch of tape?

It's actually because we fancy ourselves smart enough to know what wire is doing what based on visual context.

But seriously, I think we should protect the ignorant. It's not their fault they were born that way.

 

[mivey]

How did we ever survive the old days before we did not have the white wires re-identified? Oh yeah, we knew what we were doing.

While I think the re-identification can be helpful at times, it seems to me to be more of a lame attempt to idiot-proof the job. Personally, if an electrician can't figure out which white wires in a panel or box should be hot, they should not be there in the first place (at least unsupervised).

 

[iwire]

Personally, if an electrician can't figure out which white wires in a panel or box should be hot, they should not be there in the first place

 

[kwired]

Fair enough. What is your source for info when you need it?

Let me take a wild guess......

This forum?

I did not say I never use the codebook, just when there is questions. Do you read the owners manual for your car every time you drive it? And yes this this forum is a great place to learn things, it keeps my mind active in areas that I may not run into all that often but I still have some knowledge of those installations and will be very useful when I do run into similar installations. When inspecting do you walk around the inspection site with open code book? Likely not, you look for things you don't expect to see, and if you don't know exactly which section is violated or if it is a violation you then look in the code and find the section that applies. If inspecting some type of installation you are not all that familiar with the chance of the code book coming out increases, same with me when installing.

How did we ever survive the old days before we did not have the white wires re-identified? Oh yeah, we knew what we were doing.

While I think the re-identification can be helpful at times, it seems to me to be more of a lame attempt to idiot-proof the job. Personally, if an electrician can't figure out which white wires in a panel or box should be hot, they should not be there in the first place (at least unsupervised).

My thoughts exactly. Most of the time the tape on the white wire will not even be noticed by the "idiots" we are trying to protect. They might see the tape but will have no idea it has a meaning, and a good professional will know what that wire is for whether it is marked or not.

 

[dkidd]

Fair enough. What is your source for info when you need it?

Some folks on the forum use wikipedia.

Here is a picture from a project a while ago. No tape needed?

View attachment 7196

 

[kwired]

Some folks on the forum use wikipedia.

Here is a picture from a project a while ago. No tape needed?

View attachment 7196

If that is a raceway wiring method, which we can't see but I'm guessing it likely is, then white wire is not allowed even if marked. The marking option only comes with cable wiring methods.

That or you have a fuse in the neutral which is a different issue.

 

[K8MHZ]

I did not say I never use the codebook, just when there is questions. Do you read the owners manual for your car every time you drive it? And yes this this forum is a great place to learn things, it keeps my mind active in areas that I may not run into all that often but I still have some knowledge of those installations and will be very useful when I do run into similar installations. When inspecting do you walk around the inspection site with open code book? Likely not, you look for things you don't expect to see, and if you don't know exactly which section is violated or if it is a violation you then look in the code and find the section that applies. If inspecting some type of installation you are not all that familiar with the chance of the code book coming out increases, same with me when installing.

I was just chiding you a bit.

In reality I own code books because I like books. I have over a hundred electrical books and several hundred automotive books (former ASE tech specializing in electrical systems)

Also, in reality, there is no comparison to an owner's manual and the NEC. Does your owner's manual get updated every three years? Does your owner's manual get adopted by a jurisdiction as law?

I am not an inspector, so when someone does call me to look at a job for code compliance, yes, I do have a code book with me. (People don't call me for easy stuff for some reason...)

When I do a job that is at all sizable, there will be a code book on the bench or table when the inspector gets there. Many inspectors in smaller jurisdictions don't carry books with them and I refuse to take that as an excuse for them not being able back up their mandates with the book.

I am used to the 'I don't need a book' attitude. It transcends our trade and is prevalent in amateur radio as well. 90 percent or more licensed operators don't own a copy of CFR 47 Part 97, a book the size of a pamphlet that covers federal FCC laws that must follow international (ITU) rules. That book only costs about 6 bucks.

What amazes me is how many people will bullheadedly argue rules when they don't even own a rule book.

And I came from an industrial background where all the wires are the same color. I am used to it, but BY FAR prefer to work with conductors marked for their purpose in some manner. It's one less thing for me to have to concern myself with.

The automotive industry has no rules for electrical systems. There are some patterns, like black for ground, red is on w/key and orange is on all the time. In the late 80's Ford decided to use a red wire to ground the radios in their Ranger pick up trucks. Yes, it resulted in significant damage when radios were being removed or upgraded. Every service call I went on to repair those Rangers was due to damage done by experienced mechanics connecting the wires wrong due to Ford's better idea of using red for a ground wire.

Color coding wires based upon use is just good design work. It has nothing to do with 'idiot proofing'.

 

[K8MHZ]

If that is a raceway wiring method, which we can't see but I'm guessing it likely is, then white wire is not allowed even if marked. The marking option only comes with cable wiring methods.

That or you have a fuse in the neutral which is a different issue.

I worked in a steel mill that would never have that problem. All the wires were black, even the grounding conductors.

 

[iwire]

It really is beyond my personal comprehension that electricians feel $80 is too much to pay for a code book.

A code book is typically good for at least 3 years.


You can't fill your trucks fuel tank for that and you may use that up in a couple of days.

If you spend just $3.00 for coffee each day you tossed $80 away in less than 30 days.

A 500' spool of 12 AWG copper THHN is what about $60?


Just hard for me to understand and I am a real cheap guy.

 

[K8MHZ]

It really is beyond my personal comprehension that electricians feel $80 is too much to pay for a code book.

A code book is typically good for at least 3 years.


You can't fill your trucks fuel tank for that and you may use that up in a couple of days.

If you spend just $3.00 for coffee each day you tossed $80 away in less than 30 days.

A 500' spool of 12 AWG copper THHN is what about $60?


Just hard for me to understand and I am a real cheap guy.

Good point. It costs 80 bucks to fill my van up with gas.

I wish I only had to do that once every three years.....

 

[kwired]

Good point. It costs 80 bucks to fill my van up with gas.

I wish I only had to do that once every three years.....

I have 35 gallon diesel tank. If at less than 1/4 tank when you go to fuel up you will spend $100 or more. I don't even want to see the bill for those over the road drivers that carry 200 gallons or more when they have full tanks.

 

[kwired]

I worked in a steel mill that would never have that problem. All the wires were black, even the grounding conductors.

I'm guessing that there was more black items than just the conductors.

 

[Little Bill]

If that is a raceway wiring method, which we can't see but I'm guessing it likely is, then white wire is not allowed even if marked. The marking option only comes with cable wiring methods.


That or you have a fuse in the neutral which is a different issue.

Not exactly true, you can re-identify single conductors 4AWG and larger.

It really is beyond my personal comprehension that electricians feel $80 is too much to pay for a code book.

A code book is typically good for at least 3 years.


You can't fill your trucks fuel tank for that and you may use that up in a couple of days.

If you spend just $3.00 for coffee each day you tossed $80 away in less than 30 days.

A 500' spool of 12 AWG copper THHN is what about $60?


Just hard for me to understand and I am a real cheap guy.

Send me a spool for $60.00. I have to pay over $70.00 here for it.

 

[kwired]

Not exactly true, you can re-identify single conductors 4AWG and larger.




Send me a spool for $60.00. I have to pay over $70.00 here for it.

250.119 prohibits using conductors that have insulation or other outer covering that is green or green with yellow stripes from being used for anything but grounding. So you can not re-identify a green or green with yellow stripes.

200.6 does not specifically say anything about using white or gray conductors for other purposes besides grounded conductors and re-identifying them (larger than 6AWG). Be ready to argue with the inspector if you do so as many will not see it as acceptable if it is not part of a cable assembly. For larger than 6AWG is has same requirements as smaller conductors with the additional condition that it can be marked, so I think it very well may not be acceptable to re-identify a white or gray larger than 6AWG as anything else.

 

[Little Bill]

250.119 prohibits using conductors that have insulation or other outer covering that is green or green with yellow stripes from being used for anything but grounding. So you can not re-identify a green or green with yellow stripes.

200.6 does not specifically say anything about using white or gray conductors for other purposes besides grounded conductors and re-identifying them (larger than 6AWG). Be ready to argue with the inspector if you do so as many will not see it as acceptable if it is not part of a cable assembly. For larger than 6AWG is has same requirements as smaller conductors with the additional condition that it can be marked, so I think it very well may not be acceptable to re-identify a white or gray larger than 6AWG as anything else.

I was only referring to grounded conductors, not grounding conductors.

Why do you want to go and bring in code rules to muddy up a good conversation?

I have re-identified a single white conductor as an ungrounded conductor before. Inspector didn't have a problem with it. It was a feeder to a sub-panel.

But you're right, I think I was combining 200.6 & 200.7.

 

[jumper]

How did we ever survive the old days before we did not have the white wires re-identified? Oh yeah, we knew what we were doing.

While I think the re-identification can be helpful at times, it seems to me to be more of a lame attempt to idiot-proof the job. Personally, if an electrician can't figure out which white wires in a panel or box should be hot, they should not be there in the first place (at least unsupervised).

Agree.:thumbsup:

 

[jumper]

I have re-identified a single white conductor as an ungrounded conductor before. Inspector didn't have a problem with it. It was a feeder to a sub-panel.

 

[Little Bill]

Between this thread and my "what's this wire used for" thread looks like I'm going away for a long time!

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow I finally gave up reading all of this thread.

Pedro, that was very well stated in your first post.

So why do we need to mark the wires? Why do we need to identify the wire color on different voltage systems?

How many of you still believe that 480/277 is B/O/Y and that the neutral is gray? No where in the code book does it say that. It simply states that if you have two different voltages that the wire colors shall be different and one of the neutrals shall be white with a stripe or gray.

We have codes because not everyone is perfect. We buy new code books every three years because the code changes every three years. This is 2012 and I still write up section 210.4(B) at least once a week and it's been in the code since 2008. I still have to ask for arc-flash warning labels on panels. I still have to get KO seals in boxes for heavens sake. Guess what? None of us are perfect, not even the ones that think they are.