Change order or extras

[ptonsparky]

Worked my butt off on a project. Blank sheet for all electrical. I asked for updates and data sheets for A/C and was told I already had a layout from that sub & nothing had changed from previous spec. Pretty simple basic elect unit heaters, one large ventilation fan with two motorized inlet dampers. Got 36 pages of info on ventilation, unit heaters, etc a few days ago. Now 5 sidewall exhaust fans (now 480v 3ph), 2 smaller exhaust, and 4 motorized louvers. When I questioned the add items the Project manager said these were include in "Scope or Work". I bid the project on 17 May, Scope of Work is dated 18 May, and I did not receive it until 12 June. Never mind that the items now spec'd are of different quantities etc than that of Scope.

Sound like a change order?

 

[cadpoint]

I guess I'm just being blunt, but how do you itemize a cost from a blank sheet of paper? I'll assume it's now or was all in the spec's that you just got all the cut sheets on...

Yes if a piece of equipment changed per location its a change order, if the equipment is now new to the scope or work isn't that additional services rendered?

Render is both a noun and a verb, who knew!

 

[ptonsparky]

Blank sheet meaning I put in what I felt was needed with basically no input from others. I did ask for the HT/AC requirements, but little else. They did send me a floor plan.

 

[Smart $]

Worked my butt off on a project. Blank sheet for all electrical. I asked for updates and data sheets for A/C and was told I already had a layout from that sub & nothing had changed from previous spec. Pretty simple basic elect unit heaters, one large ventilation fan with two motorized inlet dampers. Got 36 pages of info on ventilation, unit heaters, etc a few days ago. Now 5 sidewall exhaust fans (now 480v 3ph), 2 smaller exhaust, and 4 motorized louvers. When I questioned the add items the Project manager said these were include in "Scope or Work". I bid the project on 17 May, Scope of Work is dated 18 May, and I did not receive it until 12 June. Never mind that the items now spec'd are of different quantities etc than that of Scope.

Sound like a change order?

IMO, yes if your bid did not include the extra work, materials, and overhead. Worst that can happen (to start with) is it gets rejected. Document everything to CYA... and don't forget to transcribe verbal requests and dates thereof as best you can; with documentation... make sure they have dates you sent or received.

 

[kwired]

Since the specifications on the bid were your specifications, did you include anything with the bid that detailed what the bid actually includes?

I have quite a few of same type of jobs. They want to know what it will cost, yet have no plan, maybe a basic floor plan at the most. If they want to shop for a contractor how do they expect all of them to give them a price for the same thing if they have no plan?? They don't seem to understand that I can give them different price depending on what actually gets installed :slaphead:

You don't want to know how many people wanted me to bid on new home based on information that came from a pretty crude floor plan out of a magazine, and thought I could actually give them a bid from something that included absolutely no electrical details whatsoever. I have had a lot of non residential stuff that has really been no better. Quick sketch on a piece of paper with major known dimensions and hopefully I know what questions to ask of what electrical equipment is needed. Grain bins or farm buildings are always that way - luckily the electrical needs are similar from one install to the next and you can usually get it right knowing the right questions. A new home - there is too many what if's and changes during construction, or they start to run out of money that was budgeted and some things start to change because of it, but we may still want that item some day so prepare as much as possible for it.

 

[CopperTone]

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run their business but maybe you should have told the GC that if you have to guess on the equipment that will be installed then you are only guessing on the price - and you should have written that on your quote - "THIS IS ONLY A GUESS!"

I just had a situation where an owner wanted to get a project done quickly - I gave him a bid from a complete set of engineered prints - I found out after talking to a friend of mine who is an EC - who got the job that he bid the same job without prints and now that he is doing the job and there are prints, he is putting in for changes which he is not sure he will get but his price will now be over mine.

He bids low without prints, gets the job, and is now fighting for extras - or fighting for money to do it the way the prints say to do it - but they don't want to pay him because they are holding him to the prints and his price.

I bid the job according to the specs and prints - and I appear to be high and lose the job.

As pissed as I am thet I didnt get the job, at lease I am not going to lose money or have to fight this job the whole way for money that I may not get.

 

[kwired]

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run their business but maybe you should have told the GC that if you have to guess on the equipment that will be installed then you are only guessing on the price - and you should have written that on your quote - "THIS IS ONLY A GUESS!"

I just had a situation where an owner wanted to get a project done quickly - I gave him a bid from a complete set of engineered prints - I found out after talking to a friend of mine who is an EC - who got the job that he bid the same job without prints and now that he is doing the job and there are prints, he is putting in for changes which he is not sure he will get but his price will now be over mine.

He bids low without prints, gets the job, and is now fighting for extras - or fighting for money to do it the way the prints say to do it - but they don't want to pay him because they are holding him to the prints and his price.

I bid the job according to the specs and prints - and I appear to be high and lose the job.

As pissed as I am thet I didnt get the job, at lease I am not going to lose money or have to fight this job the whole way for money that I may not get.

When I give someone a written quote that was not based on a good detailed plan the quote has right on it "this is an estimate and not a contract".

 

[Strathead]

Worked my butt off on a project. Blank sheet for all electrical. I asked for updates and data sheets for A/C and was told I already had a layout from that sub & nothing had changed from previous spec. Pretty simple basic elect unit heaters, one large ventilation fan with two motorized inlet dampers. Got 36 pages of info on ventilation, unit heaters, etc a few days ago. Now 5 sidewall exhaust fans (now 480v 3ph), 2 smaller exhaust, and 4 motorized louvers. When I questioned the add items the Project manager said these were include in "Scope or Work". I bid the project on 17 May, Scope of Work is dated 18 May, and I did not receive it until 12 June. Never mind that the items now spec'd are of different quantities etc than that of Scope.

Sound like a change order?

What I don't see here is any of the information that actually matters legally in regards to whether it is a change order. Did you sign a contract? Was there a scope of work in the contract? Did this scope of work IN THE CONTRACT that you signed, include the Scope of Work dated 18 May? To me, it is as simple as that. I have reviewed many contracts where they included plans dated after the bid. If I fail to make sure that my scope and the scope signed for in the Contract are not compatible, then I expect that that is my problem. I constantly fight (or discuss) with the Contruction Managers in this area to include may clarification in their contract period. I don't care if they reference my bid scope as and attachment, or cut and paste my clarifications in to their contract. I provide it to them in "Word" format so it is easy. If there is something that they don't like, or I don't like, then we iron it out before signing.

 

[cdslotz]

He bids low without prints, gets the job, and is now fighting for extras - or fighting for money to do it the way the prints say to do it - but they don't want to pay him because they are holding him to the prints and his price.

I bid the job according to the specs and prints - and I appear to be high and lose the job.

As pissed as I am thet I didnt get the job, at lease I am not going to lose money or have to fight this job the whole way for money that I may not get.

Sorry GC you got there.
I assume you qualified what plan sheets, dates, spec sections you were quoting.
Your competitor is a fool for not nailing down scope before signing. He will get screwed.
Move on. You did your job.
If this GC asks you to bid another project, tell him to pound sand and why.

 

[cdslotz]

What I don't see here is any of the information that actually matters legally in regards to whether it is a change order. Did you sign a contract? Was there a scope of work in the contract? Did this scope of work IN THE CONTRACT that you signed, include the Scope of Work dated 18 May? To me, it is as simple as that. I have reviewed many contracts where they included plans dated after the bid. If I fail to make sure that my scope and the scope signed for in the Contract are not compatible, then I expect that that is my problem. I constantly fight (or discuss) with the Contruction Managers in this area to include may clarification in their contract period. I don't care if they reference my bid scope as and attachment, or cut and paste my clarifications in to their contract. I provide it to them in "Word" format so it is easy. If there is something that they don't like, or I don't like, then we iron it out before signing.

Yep.
Your scope of work on your proposal should include every plan sheet and dates, spec sections and it should be attached to your contract. No exceptions!!!!

 

[Strathead]

Add to all said prior, you have to be careful not to give too much information on the original proposal sheet, if this is a design bid. If I see a minimum bid that I reasonably assume WILL NOT result in a product the end user will want, I will do something like Base Price is for a code minimum installation per the guidelines provided. Additive alternate 1 anticipating the actual needs of the customer. Make them come to you and ask what the adder is for, and unless you have a trusting relationship with the GC, don't design the job for them without a contract or commitment! Way too often today, Construction Managers are relying on three Electrical Contractors to design bid a plan and then sending out the conglomerated design for a final low bid! Another pitfall of the current envoronment, like having to print all of your own plans. And they think that 15% combined overhead and profit is enough. I suggest you remember to charge them for plan printing and as built work for every change order.

(Edit) I'm not too bitter am I?

 

[cdslotz]

My OH&P is none of their business.
My profit markup is based on many factors related to that particular job.
My plan printing is figured in my OH. It's no different than paying the electric bill.

 

[Strathead]

My OH&P is none of their business.
My profit markup is based on many factors related to that particular job.
My plan printing is figured in my OH. It's no different than paying the electric bill.

I was thinking of change orders. At that time it has become very standard in my area for the contract to dictate allowed markup and when they do, 15% is common.

 

[cdslotz]

I was thinking of change orders. At that time it has become very standard in my area for the contract to dictate allowed markup and when they do, 15% is common.

Oh yes true. That's fairly standard.
I hide the extra profit in material pricing and NECA labor units.

 

[Strathead]

Oh yes true. That's fairly standard.
I hide the extra profit in material pricing and NECA labor units.

To some extent so do I, also labor cost, but every once in a while GC will want to put his hand in the fire. I make sure he gets burned. I usually use a labor rate that is high too. If the GC questions a change order that is reasonable, I will start putting in Foreman's truck time, estimating and project manager cost, material/warehouseman cost, plan printing, as-built, redirection of personnel etc. and make sure that the question costs them money. I have had them argue that estmiating and project management costs are overhead not change order costs, but I have won this argument at least 3 times that I can think of. Basically, if there were no change order, the estimator and project manager would be doing other things. That makes it a direct cost, not an overhaed cost.

 

[tkb]

Somebody has to add this photo to this thread.

 

[kwired]

My OH&P is none of their business.
My profit markup is based on many factors related to that particular job.
My plan printing is figured in my OH. It's no different than paying the electric bill.

And your quote is just that, a quote, or a price tag in a way. Just like going to average retail store, they mark items with the price they expect customers to pay for the item. They don't itemize their cost, shipping, overhead, profit, etc., it is nobody's business. If you don't like the price you either can try to get a different price (does work sometimes), buy it somewhere else, or keep your mouth shut and pay their asking price. The same applies to contracting.

 

[Strathead]

And your quote is just that, a quote, or a price tag in a way. Just like going to average retail store, they mark items with the price they expect customers to pay for the item. They don't itemize their cost, shipping, overhead, profit, etc., it is nobody's business. If you don't like the price you either can try to get a different price (does work sometimes), buy it somewhere else, or keep your mouth shut and pay their asking price. The same applies to contracting.

Again, not with change orders, which is the context of the comment!

 

[kwired]

Again, not with change orders, which is the context of the comment!

Kind of no different than selling a product at retail store that has "batteries not included" or other accessories not included marked right on the product.

Why can't I contract a "free demo version" and then later charge for a fully functioning installation, just make sure all the correct fine print is in the original contract

 

[Strathead]

Kind of no different than selling a product at retail store that has "batteries not included" or other accessories not included marked right on the product.

Why can't I contract a "free demo version" and then later charge for a fully functioning installation, just make sure all the correct fine print is in the original contract

You can, but it has been a long time since I had a change order that the owner didn't require back up for. I could certainly refuse to do the additional work, but the catch is that if I am not trying to take advantage of the client, I should be able to show some sort of documentation. I know that change orders always have a reputation of being excessive, but in my experience, they rarely make up for the hassle involved.

I, for example would not authorize my car mechanic to do $500 more work than the estimate without an explanation.