Do you always "call before you dig"?

[Cow]

Dug one of these up once,

Luckily the Maw Bell locator said it wasn't there

Whoa! I couldn't imagine splicing all the pairs back together on that one!!!

 

[Lectricbota]

Dug one of these up once,
Luckily the Maw Bell locator said it wasn't there

WOW- how many pairs in that thing

 

[masterinbama]

WOW- how many pairs in that thing

1500 pairs. The Maw Bell guys said the going rate at the time was $8 per pair. That's a $12,000 uh oh on the locators part.

 

[coffeebean]

I call when I'm doing a service change and driving in ground rods but the last time I called the rep said there was nothing for ground rods.The closest description was fence posts.

 

[mgookin]

If you call and they do the locates and they are wrong, they eat any problems which arise.
If you don't call and you hit something, you eat it.
Make your own decision.
Chose well.

 

[charlie b]

Last summer I had a contractor use a back hoe to remove about 18 inches of crushed rock from a driveway area that has since been converted to a garden. I had him make the call. Not surprisingly, all of the utilities were nowhere near the dig area. But I didn't want to take any chances.

The house I was renting about ten years ago only had one phone line and no cable TV. Making a deal with the owner, I hand dug a trench about 18 inches deep and about 75 feet long (whew!). The phone and cable utilities gave me some empty rubber tubing that I buried in the trench (the two utilities were willing to share the trench). Then they ran their wires and finished the connections. I made the call that time. I discovered much to my surprise that the electric utility actually went first to a panel in a flimsy sheet metal tool shed behind the house. It was hidden by stuff that would bring 110.26 to mind, and I did not know it was there. What I had thought was the main panel in the basement turned out to be a sub panel from the one in the shed. hmy:

 

[RichB]

We had a contract one time that stated,,"Locate and remove existing utilities by excavation."

Then, when we tried to get it changed, we were told that "the old stuff was coming out anyway",, a couple of calls to the other utility companies and it was changed rathjer quickly----huh,,, 'magine that!!!!!

 

[SalixKetuur]

ALWAYS get your locates done

ALWAYS get your locates done

I am unsure of the laws, however the liability of hitting a line is too high to consider not having your locates done. I used to be a locator and I have seen what can happen. Even a having a "private locate" which you would pay for is worth it. For instance, a company did not have locates done in a parking lot they were boring a new line through. They hit one of the electrical feeds for the parking lot lights and the cost of down-time, the repair of the line and then having to get and pay for the locate anyway was quite steep. Luckily no one was hurt in that one, but the $500 locate would have saved them thousands of dollars.
There is just far too much evidence of the property damage and injuries that can occur from failing to have locates done. If it not law, it definitely should be.

 

[kwired]

I am unsure of the laws, however the liability of hitting a line is too high to consider not having your locates done. I used to be a locator and I have seen what can happen. Even a having a "private locate" which you would pay for is worth it. For instance, a company did not have locates done in a parking lot they were boring a new line through. They hit one of the electrical feeds for the parking lot lights and the cost of down-time, the repair of the line and then having to get and pay for the locate anyway was quite steep. Luckily no one was hurt in that one, but the $500 locate would have saved them thousands of dollars.
There is just far too much evidence of the property damage and injuries that can occur from failing to have locates done. If it not law, it definitely should be.

To locate a private line you first must know if there is a private line there to locate. Utilities don't always have accurate records, but at least have records to tell them if there is something in the general area, and then send someone out to mark it if there is something there. Private lines seldom have any kind of record and we rely on assumptions to some extent. Like if there is a separate building on a property with electric power - then at very least there must be at least one electric line somewhere supplying it, unless the energy is derived from within.

 

[hbiss]

... It's just that they have a really nice lawn and I don't want to piss them off.

There is an ongoing legal case here involving a Verizon sub-contractor who was boring under streets in a housing development and hit a gas main. One unit was totally destroyed and I believe two firemen were injured. The owner of the company pled guilty before trial as the evidence was stacked against him and is facing jail time. Now he's withdrawing his guilty plea because the tech from the locating company is now admitting that someone from the homeowners association chased him away before he could finish because "they didn't like all those marks on their streets".

-Hal

 

[Strummed]

There is an ongoing legal case here involving a Verizon sub-contractor who was boring under streets in a housing development and hit a gas main. One unit was totally destroyed and I believe two firemen were injured. The owner of the company pled guilty before trial as the evidence was stacked against him and is facing jail time. Now he's withdrawing his guilty plea because the tech from the locating company is now admitting that someone from the homeowners association chased him away before he could finish because "they didn't like all those marks on their streets".

-Hal

I'm seeing a lot of stories, but very few answers to the question.

Do you "call before you dig" on every single house that you drive ground rods at?

 

[kwired]

There is an ongoing legal case here involving a Verizon sub-contractor who was boring under streets in a housing development and hit a gas main. One unit was totally destroyed and I believe two firemen were injured. The owner of the company pled guilty before trial as the evidence was stacked against him and is facing jail time. Now he's withdrawing his guilty plea because the tech from the locating company is now admitting that someone from the homeowners association chased him away before he could finish because "they didn't like all those marks on their streets".

-Hal

If information you just said is true, why is the excavation contractor at fault? If he requested a locate he did what he was supposed to. If lines are not marked how is he supposed to know where they are at, or even if they are there at all? Depends on what the laws are, but here any utility that is notified is supposed to mark their utility within 48 hours, mark it well enough to withstand at least 5 days of whatever conditions exist, or if there they have nothing in the excavation area they are supposed to leave a mark indicating they are al clear or contact the excavating contractor to indicate it is all clear.

If I were the contractor in that case and did in fact do what is right, I would be seriously considering counter suing the homeowners association.

All that over a few marks that will disappear in relatively short time:slaphead::slaphead::slaphead:

Some people just don't realize how dangerous some of this work is. Now they have (just a little) bigger problem than a few paint marks on the grass or the pavement.

 

[readydave8]

I'm seeing a lot of stories, but very few answers to the question.

Do you "call before you dig" on every single house that you drive ground rods at?

No.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm seeing a lot of stories, but very few answers to the question.

Do you "call before you dig" on every single house that you drive ground rods at?

i haven't in the past. i've also been lucky.

here' why.... the dig alert folks will come and tag the street
out at the curb, so i know where the utilities enter the property
line. in 35 years, i've yet to drive a ground rod at the curb.
the information doesn't help me, except to mitigate my liability
if something goes very wrong.

for that reason alone, i tend to call dig alert, 'cause it's free,
and not calling dig alert is NOT free, on a bad day. you are
still liable for damage done by you in this state, but there isn't
gonna be a criminal complaint 'cause you DIDN'T do your due
diligence by calling.

so it tells me in a general way where the utilities are at.

it's funny, but in the last couple years, i tend to really pause
before sinking a ground rod. you just never know..... :slaphead:

a while back, i engineered a little job for someone in riverside,
and it was noted on the civil drawings was the fact that a 72"
diameter water line was 24" below grade to the top of the pipe.

this pipe is one of the main supplies of drinking water to the city
of riverside, calif. and came directly from lake arrowhead, right
under this little store and lock my friend was building. the drawing
used the word "catastrophic" twice in the notes, explaining there
was NO SHUTOFF for this pipe.

the job i'm finishing up in the port of long beach, when time came
to drive the ground rod, there wasn't anyone to call... for the last
70 years, there has been untold amounts of stuff put in the ground
there, oil pipelines, power, everything.

there is no one source to find out what's in the ground there. there's
an underground contractor that has been doing work in the port
since 1932, and that is probably the best source of anecdotal information.

the grading contractor had removed 6' of overburden, and filled and
compacted by wheel rolling with a D-8, and he said i had 6' all clear.
so the 8' ground rod, by the time it's above the pour, is gonna be
about 6' deep, so i drove it, while holding my breath. there is now
an underground contractor putting in a 6' wide utility trench across
the property, 8' deep, in preparation for the gerald desmond bridge
project... holy crap, there's a lot of stuff in the ground! must be
50 or 60 pipes crossing that ditch in a couple hundred feet... anything
from 2" conduit to 12" oil lines.

so, at this point, in this part of the country, i call every time now.

 

[kwired]

i haven't in the past. i've also been lucky.

here' why.... the dig alert folks will come and tag the street
out at the curb, so i know where the utilities enter the property
line.

I guess I can't speak about the laws where you are at, but here the utilities locate their lines if they are in the excavation area. They don't stop at the street. The only way they can get away with not locating beyond the street is if it is considered a private line after that point. That usually isn't going to happen with electric lines if the meter is on the structure served, or water lines with meters on structure served. Also isn't going to happen with any line that serves more than one customer, property, etc. Those are not private lines if they serve more than the property they are located on.

If a municipality has a 24 inch water main in the vicinity where someone wants to do any activity that may disturb it, you would think they would have a very strong interest in pointing out its location.

 

[zbang]

ETA- don't know how it double posted, would somebody pls delete the earlier one?0

The only way they can get away with not locating beyond the street is if it is considered a private line after that point.

Funny you should mention that...
Last summer, I was privileged to watch a small pssing contest followed by a small geyser--

On a sunny Tuesday morning, the surveyors came out to mark the center of a new road with stakes, and were informed that the future roadbed was going to have about 3000 people sitting on it in 4 days time (a weekend music event) and that the stakes won't stay put. All the survey crew knows is to make the center line, but says, OK, we'll use flag nails instead of stakes, but if we have to remark... it'll be your cost (ya, right). There was much arguing about the stakes, marks, why, how long, etc. The survey company didn't know nuffin'.

Wednesday, the locate crew comes out and makes a bunch of marks. With paint (which is just fine).

Thursday, the object of this exercise comes out, the core-sample company. They start to take their samples up the centerline, and as you may have guessed, hit a 6" private water line. Hilarity ensues, with many explanations about what's on the plans, what was detected, not our fault, etc. (AFAICT, the only one blameless was the core-sample company, since the ground had been marked.)

From all that, we learn-
Even though this music event is a city project, attracts 150k people over the weekend, and has used the right-of-way as a stage/seating area for 6-7 years, none of the construction or planning people accounted for this.

Nobody told the survey crew -why- they were out marking, so they couldn't tell the event staff on the ground. (If they had said that the core company was scheduled for Thursday, we wouldn't have had some go'rounds with the civil engineering folks.)

Nobody bothered to tell the event staff in any capacity what was going on. (Like, we'll be done by Friday.)

Even though that land had been industrial for 150 years, with all that entails, the locate company did not contact the property owners (a large energy company) to ask about what they have under the surface. When the owner's staff noticed the water problem, they had the pipe shut off in a few minutes. They knew about it.

(The local explanation of this behavior is that not only does the city's right hand not know what the left hand is doing, it doesn't even know there is a left hand.)

Makes you wonder, sometimes.

 

[SalixKetuur]

Passive Sweeps

Passive Sweeps

To locate a private line you first must know if there is a private line there to locate. Utilities don't always have accurate records, but at least have records to tell them if there is something in the general area...

This is EXACTLY why we do passive sweeps. I have done HUGE areas using passive sweeps. The environmental engineering firms we have worked for have set these sweeps as policy. No ground distubance until these are done. Granted the passive sweeps are never 100%, at least you are meeting your due diligence. I have found buried 15kV lines that the custsomer absolutely swore were not in the area.

 

[Hv&Lv]

That usually isn't going to happen with electric lines if the meter is on the structure served, or water lines with meters on structure served. Also isn't going to happen with any line that serves more than one customer, property, etc. Those are not private lines if they serve more than the property they are located on.

We primary meter a couple of places here. the individual residences (trailers and campers) have meters on them, but are private meters and private lines feeding the meters. Twice an argument has been won by telling the owners subcontractors to go ahead and cut the lines, they weren't ours. Once the lines were cut, the owners finally realized we weren't going to fix them, and they needed to call an electrician. I still can't understand why it took twice.

There are also private water companies here that serve entire neighborhoods. It is their responsibility to mark all their lines. Problem is, the lines don't have tracer wires.

 

[GUNNING]

oops

oops

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2013/04/02/sotvo-oil-driveway.from-youtube-drew-barnes

Here is a link to an Exxon-Mobile pipe break.

Notice it is bubbling out right next to the cable box.

Ground rod? Trenching?

Think they called before they dug? :ashamed:

 

[kwired]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2013/04/02/sotvo-oil-driveway.from-youtube-drew-barnes

Here is a link to an Exxon-Mobile pipe break.

Notice it is bubbling out right next to the cable box.

Ground rod? Trenching?

Think they called before they dug? :ashamed:

Look at where the oil is coming from at the very beginning of the video - behind the trees behind those homes is likely the pipeline location.

Even where we see the cable box, the oil is coming from somewhere behind the homes and not from near the cable box.