When is a service conductor inside a building

[Bjenks]

2 years ago we did a design on a residence that is on the beach with the main house being on beams. We were not allowed to put any electrical equipment on the ground, it all had to be elevated. So we put a CT meter out on a stair platform and the service disconnect in the middle of the house in an electrical room (big house). The service comes underground and up to the CT meter and then underneath the residence for about 20 ft (attached by schedule 80) till it come up into the residence directly into the service disconnect panel with a 800A MB. We knew there might be an issue with the service going underneath, but we passed the plan reviewers stage and rough in stage. That inspector is no longer with the county and a new one came in for the final and said we need to put the disconnect out by the meter. This will be a major change order as the steps would have to be rebuilt and the cost of the disconnect.

While the code mentions in 230.7 what is outside the building, it never mentions what is considered inside the building. There is a statement in 230.7 (A)(1) about inside the neared the point of entrance of the service conductors, but that is what we have done. So is there a literal violation of the code or could the AHJ make the call as being unsafe? What about waiting till the final inspection to bring this up?

My other thought is to put a 4" PVC coated Rigid conduit around the 2" PVC schedule 80 underneath the building and inject the space with concrete. This should be cheaper than a disconnect outside.

 

[GoldDigger]

My other thought is to put a 4" PVC coated Rigid conduit around the 2" PVC schedule 80 underneath the building and inject the space with concrete. This should be cheaper than a disconnect outside.

If an inspector screws up, you generally have to pay for it. Unless the applicable code changed between the two inspections. But at least you can appeal.
would less than 1" thickness of concrete on all sides of the inner raceway be enough to consider the wires isolated from the house?

 

[Bjenks]

Good point, 6" RMC.

 

[augie47]

I would consider the original conduit to be "outside" as long as the area is not enclosed.

 

[charlie b]

This is absurd! :thumbsdown: The CMP thought it necessary and appropriate to tell us ways a conduit that is otherwise within a building can still be treated as though it were outside. They didn't think it necessary to tell us that outside is really outside. Does the inspector think that 230.6 should have started out as follows:

Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions: (1) When the conductors actually ARE outside the building.

Where does the inspector think the CT is? Is the CT inside the building too? If so, that must mean that the conduit leading up to the CT is also inside, and then shouldn't the disconnecting means be located at grade level? For if the inspector thinks the CT is outside, then the conduit between the CT and the point at which the conduit penetrates the floor is also outside.

A building has walls, and it has a floor, and it has a roof. When you penetrate any of these, you go "inside." But until you penetrate one of these, you are "outside."

 

[GoldDigger]

A building has walls, and it has a floor, and it has a roof. When you penetrate any of these, you go "inside." But until you penetrate one of these, you are "outside." [/FONT][/SIZE]

Perhaps a case where it is not as cut and dried would the case of an enclosed crawl space under the floor, entirely within the perimeter of the foundation, which is also the perimeter of the outside walls which reach below the floor level down to the footings.
Is cable run through that crawl space inside the house?
Would whether the only access to the crawl space is from outside the house or from a trapdoor in the floor make any difference?
You have penetrated the wall, but not the floor. What now? Or is the cripple wall not a wall of the house?

In topology there can be shapes which are connected in a complicated enough way that it becomes impossible to tell whether you are inside or outside. (The Klein Bottle for example) And others where you can tell which side you are on, but not which one is the outside and which the inside. This situation is not that bad, but still a question about which reasonable people may disagree. And so can we.

Inside versus outside the house seems completely clear, as long as you can agree on the boundaries of the house. A screened porch which is open to the weather but roofed over and joined to the house exterior wall on one side would be considered by most to be inside the house. What is different between that and a crawl space? What if you take the screens out and just have empty openings, so that it is now a covered porch only? Is it now outside?
The distinction of exposed to the weather for outlets and devices on the porch certainly varies with these scenarios, but does the exposed to weather part make it outside the house.
I am not set on any particular answer at this point and would like to see others' opinions.

 

[Bjenks]

Where does the inspector think the CT is? Is the CT inside the building too? If so, that must mean that the conduit leading up to the CT is also inside, and then shouldn't the disconnecting means be located at grade level? For if the inspector thinks the CT is outside, then the conduit between the CT and the point at which the conduit penetrates the floor is also outside.

That was my exact arguement and is how we origianlly got away with it. Also this isn't an enclosed crawl space. It is like 8-9' up of open space with everything else being ground or parking space below. I could have gone back down and 24" burried and then come back up, but like you said, I would actually have more exposed conduit than what I have now.

 

[Cavie]

Round these parts in Florida in my 40 years, 5' penetration into the building has been allowed. What you did we do and have done all the time. No different than under the concrete slab.

 

[Bjenks]

Round these parts in Florida.

Project located in Naples, FL on the beach

 

[petersonra]

I think there is a pretty good argument either way.

Maybe it is time to request a review of this inspector's ruling.

If he is saying the conduit is inside is there any reason you could not just add a disconnect where he thinks the conduit enters the building? might be inconvenient to get to under the house like that but cheaper than all that concrete.

 

[Cavie]

Project located in Naples, FL on the beach

There's your problem. last I heard they were using a private engineering firm to do their inspections. I would fight the issue of it being passed on rough in. In Lee county we couldn't get away with that.

 

[petersonra]

bump so i can read the reply

 

[kwired]

I think there is a pretty good argument either way.

Maybe it is time to request a review of this inspector's ruling.

If he is saying the conduit is inside is there any reason you could not just add a disconnect where he thinks the conduit enters the building? might be inconvenient to get to under the house like that but cheaper than all that concrete.

You maybe missed that this disconnect would need to be at least 800 amps? If distance is not that much concrete may very well be less cost.

 

[Greg1707]

800 amp service

800 amp service

You maybe missed that this disconnect would need to be at least 800 amps? If distance is not that much concrete may very well be less cost.

What kind of house "requires" 800 amps?

 

[Cavie]

What kind of house "requires" 800 amps?

One built on Boca Grande Fl. One built on Casey Key Fl. One built in Naples Fl. Most of the time these are Winter Residents used 3-4 months a year. Sometimes used as weekenders. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

They also come with Whole House Generators.

 

[kevin]

The conductors between the CT enclosure and the main panel are subject to the provisions of:

230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building.
Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or
other structure under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of
concrete beneath a building or other structure
...
(4) Where installed in conduit and under not less than
450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other
structure

It seems fairly clear that the conductors in question are "beneath a building", and must either be protected
by a service disconnecting means as ordered by the AHJ or rendered "outside of a building" by complying with
one of the two options available in section 230.6, cited above.

 

[Jgreagori]

If the project left plan review without any notation of that, you shouldn't have an issue if you do fight it. Clearly if it is ouside and not going through an enclosed crawl space until it penitrates the floor, then it's clearly outside.

 

[pete m.]

If the routing of the service conduit was clearly shown on the plans and it was reviewed without comment I don't understand how the inspection department can come back on you at this point (the final) and demand it be changed. At this point you have, to say the least, a vested interest.

Can't speak for Florida but here in Ohio if the design was approved you get to build it that way unless something was missed during plan review that constitutes a life safety or imminent hazard.

Pete

 

[Bjenks]

What kind of house "requires" 800 amps?

The kind that keeps makes a living for me during these hard times

 

[jim dungar]

It seems fairly clear that the conductors in question are "beneath a building", and must either be protected
by a service disconnecting means as ordered by the AHJ or rendered "outside of a building" by complying with
one of the two options available in section 230.6, cited above.

So how do you, personally, keep service risers outside of the building? Do you maintain 18" of dirt all the way up to the meter socket? Do you build a concrete chase up the side of the building to the top of the mast?