Who's right?

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I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
I don't have a code book in front of me and, in all honesty, I figured it would be easier just to ask the folks here.
Without going into exact details, I'll just ask my question.(2*4 drop in's by the way)

Can a #12 fixture whip from a j-box tie into a fixture along with a line side conduit(leaving the fixture) that also contains 12's, is the same lighting circuit, and terminates in a j-box which also has a #12 wire fixture whip that powers the next light in the corridor?

Person A angrily believes that this is not allowed becase the fixture wire is #14 while the conduit exiting the fixture carries #12 and Person B is a fool for thinking otherwise..

Person B believes that this is fine and is no different than daisy chaining these fixtures togeter with #12 whips. 12's in, 12's out, #14 fixture wires spliced to #12's either way.

Essentially, in this case, the fixture would simply be a chase leading to the next fixture in the corridor right?

What's the difference?

Who's right?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
For a 20 amp circuit the #12's would be branch circuit conductors, the #14's would be fixture taps. As long as the fixture taps aren't connected to in a way that it exceeds the limits in 240.5(B)(2) and only the #12's are used to extend the branch circuit you would be compliant.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I don't quite follow where the 14s keep jumping into the picture, but if there are 12s between the last junction box and the first fixture, and then 12 MC from fixture to fixture, it is expressly permitted by 410.64(C).
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
Try n clarify

Try n clarify

What we have is a corridor in which 2x4 floursent fixtures are dropped in the grid. We have a conduit run on one side of the corridor with j-boxes dropped near the fixtures and 6 foot 12/2 mc fixture whips in the j-boxes to whip down to the fixtures. That particular side of the corridor got crowded so we have to jump to the other side of the corridor to finish our lighting run. It will take two more j-boxes to finish this particular lighting run, both of which will also have 6 foot 12/2 mc fixture whips in them for the last two lights in the run.

The 14's I'm speaking of are indead the tap wires in the fixtures going to the ballasts. They are the wires that the 12/2 mc fixture whips tie into in order to power the lights.

Since there is so much clutter, water pipes, duct work, etc in the way, crossing from the cluttered side of the wall by piping out of the last j-box on that side in order to get to the other side of the wall will be a challenge to put it mildly.

So, the idea was to bring the 12/2 mc fixture whip that is in the last j-box on the cluttered side of the wall into the fixture the same as all the others.

Like I said though, we still need to continue the run to the last two fixtures in the corridor, we just need to jump to the other side of the corridor. The last two j-boxes on the other side, just like all the others in the building will also contain a 6 foot 12/2 mc fixture whip in order to supply power those two remaining fixtures in the corridor.

The question is can we simply put the 6 foot 12/2 mc factory fixture whip coming from that last lighting run j-box on the cluttered side of the corridor into the fixture for our power as usual, and then, for reasons already discussed, continue the lighting run by running flex with #12's out the other side of the fixture in order to make getting to the more open side of the corridor easier? The flex, like the rest of the run, would contain #12 feeders in order to finish the run and it would simply go into a j-box on the open/other side of the corridor. This j-box would then, as is the job norm, contain another 6 foot 12/2 fixture whip to power the next light and of course conduit would then run down line to another j-box to whip into the last light on the run. Those 12's in the flex(feeders), along with the 12/2's from the 6 foot mc factory fixture whip in that last j-box on the crowded side of the corridor will both splice into the #14 fixture taps in this particular fixture and, like I said, the flex would then continue out the other side of the fixture to a j-box on the more open side of the corridor in order to finish off the run which will consist of two more j-boxes both containing the same 6 foot 12/2 mc fixture whips we've been using.

It was said that this could not be done and that instead, a conduit containing the #12 feeders would have to go into that last j-box on the cluttered side of the corridor and somehow get across to the not so cluttered side and into the j-box on that said for the next fixture. In other words, it was said that because the fixture taps were 14's, that coming off of them with 12's and out the other side of the fixture with flex to a j-box set to whip into the next fixture, was not allowed due to the fact that the fixture taps are 14's and the circuit conductors are 12's and due to that, the only way to get across the corridor was to come out of the last j-box on the cluttered side into a j-box on the other side. That way all the feeders(12's) would be spliced in a j-box and not in the fixture on the #14 taps.

I don't understand this. All the fixture taps in every fixture in the building are 14's. Actually, they may be 16's but I don't think so. Anyway, all the 6 foot mc factory fixture whips are 12/2's or 12/3's.. Since 12's from the whips tie into the #14 fixture taps of every fixture on site, then why couldn't the 12's that would come out the other side of this particular fixture through the flex as the circuit feeders that run into a j-box where they would continue feeding this lighting run? It would make things much simpler and, like I said, to me that would be no different than if we were to daisy chain the fixtures with those 12/2 whips. Either way, it's 12's coming in, 12's going out, and both are gonna be spliced to the #14 fixture taps. It really feels no different to me than daisy chaining only instead of fixture to fixture, it would be fixture to j-box with the fixture basically acting as my chase for crossing the corridor.

Am I wrong here? Does this make anymore sense for those that were confused?
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
You're over thinking this,just daisy chain like normal,the difference will be you're hitting the fixture on one side with 12/2 MC cable and leaving the fixture on the other side with12/2 MC Cable,just strip them back long enough so they can all be spliced together.

Welcome to the forum:thumbsup:
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
You're over thinking this,just daisy chain like normal,the difference will be you're hitting the fixture on one side with 12/2 MC cable and leaving the fixture on the other side with12/2 MC Cable,just strip them back long enough so they can all be spliced together.

Welcome to the forum:thumbsup:

Thanks for the welcome and I definately do overthing a lot of things.

I would daisy chain them if I could but I can't. They're to far apart for our six foot factory whips to reach so we had to run a rack and drop boxes to whip out of.

I understand what you're saying but is wrong to do it the way I explain previously.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
Thanks for the welcome and I definately do overthing a lot of things.

I would daisy chain them if I could but I can't. They're to far apart for our six foot factory whips to reach so we had to run a rack and drop boxes to whip out of.

I understand what you're saying but is wrong to do it the way I explain previously.

Why can't you just use MC cable to fix this problem instead of using the factory whips?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
They're to far apart for our six foot factory whips to reach so we had to run a rack and drop boxes to whip out of.

OK, you have branch circuit conductors (#12's) with juntion boxes every so often to allow the connection of the 6' fixture tails. As long as the branch circuit conductors remain #12's (assuming 20 amp circuit) then you're OK. The fixture taps (conductors in the tails) can be as small as #18.
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
Why can't you just use MC cable to fix this problem instead of using the factory whips?

I'm not the boss. Plus, it's already done. That's why I was hoping I'd just be able to get an answer to my question instead of all the possible other methods of getting something done.

Didnt really make that part clear I guess. Really just looking to find out if going through the fixture as I mentioned is acceptable or not code wise.

Thanks
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
OK, you have branch circuit conductors (#12's) with juntion boxes every so often to allow the connection of the 6' fixture tails. As long as the branch circuit conductors remain #12's (assuming 20 amp circuit) then you're OK. The fixture taps (conductors in the tails) can be as small as #18.

Beautiful. Thank you. Exactly the info I was looking for.:)
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
I'm not the boss. Plus, it's already done. That's why I was hoping I'd just be able to get an answer to my question instead of all the possible other methods of getting something done.

Didnt really make that part clear I guess. Really just looking to find out if going through the fixture as I mentioned is acceptable or not code wise.

Thanks
Code wise yes it's fine,you're coming into the fixture with #12's and leaving the fixture with #12's,,what I don't understand is how #14's get into the picture,in a normal 2x4 fixture you'll have a ballast with 2 # 18's to feed the ballast , What are the #14's doing in the fixture?.
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
Code wise yes it's fine,you're coming into the fixture with #12's and leaving the fixture with #12's,,what I don't understand is how #14's get into the picture,in a normal 2x4 fixture you'll have a ballast with 2 # 18's to feed the ballast , What are the #14's doing in the fixture?.

May be the fixture leads are smaller than 14. I thought they were 14's but I could be wrong. Will have to look closer on Monday.

Thanks for the info.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You don't have a "tap" until you reduce conductor size.

If you have a computer and internet there is a code in front of you - somewhere on NFPA site you can view the NEC at no cost
 

I_am_Im_Me

Member
Location
Wisconsin
What part of this seemed controversial in the first place? :blink:
p

I was set up to do it the easy way through the fixture. When the foreman came by, he saw what I was planning and said that I couldn't do it that way because the fixture taps were 14's and the feeders were 12's. He said, angrily I might add, that the 12's couldn't tie into the 14's and I should know that. I obviously knew he was wrong and what he was saying didn't make any sense but I'm not an argumentative personality and didn't feel like arguing so I snaked my way onto the duct work, turned myself into a contortionist, and somehow managed to come out of the j-box like as he said I had to.

I don't get why it was controversial either. He generally likes to bird dog me and make me do almost everything his way whatever it may be regardless of the fact that I'm the one who, as a professional, spent the time looking things over and planning the best and most logical method. Don't get me wrong. I'm always open to suggestions and am gratefull for advice from others that is helpul. If his way, or anyone else's for that matter makes more sense than mine, I have open ears and will be thankful for the advice received. Problem is, he spends no time looking at or planning the projects he puts me on, then walks by, looks, and makes me change my plan and do it his way which is almost always illogical and results in more work and harder work for me.

First job I've worked with him on but basically he's just a ramrod who apparently either doesn't know much or care much for the code since he's violated it consistently throughout the project.

Oh well. Only one more week left. I think I can manage without popping a cork.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
p

I was set up to do it the easy way through the fixture. When the foreman came by, he saw what I was planning and said that I couldn't do it that way because the fixture taps were 14's and the feeders were 12's. He said, angrily I might add, that the 12's couldn't tie into the 14's and I should know that. I obviously knew he was wrong and what he was saying didn't make any sense but I'm not an argumentative personality and didn't feel like arguing so I snaked my way onto the duct work, turned myself into a contortionist, and somehow managed to come out of the j-box like as he said I had to.

I don't get why it was controversial either. He generally likes to bird dog me and make me do almost everything his way whatever it may be regardless of the fact that I'm the one who, as a professional, spent the time looking things over and planning the best and most logical method. Don't get me wrong. I'm always open to suggestions and am gratefull for advice from others that is helpul. If his way, or anyone else's for that matter makes more sense than mine, I have open ears and will be thankful for the advice received. Problem is, he spends no time looking at or planning the projects he puts me on, then walks by, looks, and makes me change my plan and do it his way which is almost always illogical and results in more work and harder work for me.

First job I've worked with him on but basically he's just a ramrod who apparently either doesn't know much or care much for the code since he's violated it consistently throughout the project.

Oh well. Only one more week left. I think I can manage without popping a cork.


I may be reading this wrong but it seems to me your foreman took issue with you using the fixture wire to connect to the 12s coming in to the 12s leaving the fixture and continuing the lighting branch circuit to feed the last two fixtures. As I read your post I had the impression you did not splice the 12s together you came in one end taped to the fixture wire then tap the fixture wire at the other end and continued that to the next fixture . Please clarify if the 12s in the fixture where spliced together or you used the fixture wire to connect the 12s together.

"Those 12's in the flex(feeders), along with the 12/2's from the 6 foot mc factory fixture whip in that last j-box on the crowded side of the corridor will both splice into the #14 fixture taps in this particular fixture "
 
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