480V Switchgear on 240V Service

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TrickleCharge

Member
Location
CA
Had a switchboard that needed to be changed out ASAP and the only one the contractor could locate was a 480V. The service from the utility company is 240v. Now this seems like a dumb question but Im gonna throw it out there. Is this ok? I mean the only thing I may see wrong with this instlaltion is the marking of 480v because someone may think that there is in fact 480V. Does this mean the person goes back to the manufacturer for labeling?

Thanks
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Had a switchboard that needed to be changed out ASAP and the only one the contractor could locate was a 480V. The service from the utility company is 240v. Now this seems like a dumb question but Im gonna throw it out there. Is this ok? I mean the only thing I may see wrong with this instlaltion is the marking of 480v because someone may think that there is in fact 480V. Does this mean the person goes back to the manufacturer for labeling?

Thanks

480v more than covers your application. I can't see any reason why you can't get a NP made locally to be affixed prominently next to the factory supplied NP with the actual supply.
The Only thing that may not be evident is up that the kaic rating of the devices may not be labeled for the new supply voltage but if they are the kaic ratings would definitely be higher. But they should be listed on the breakers.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Had a switchboard that needed to be changed out ASAP and the only one the contractor could locate was a 480V. The service from the utility company is 240v. Now this seems like a dumb question but Im gonna throw it out there. Is this ok? I mean the only thing I may see wrong with this instlaltion is the marking of 480v because someone may think that there is in fact 480V. Does this mean the person goes back to the manufacturer for labeling?

Thanks

Ok, in fact better. However, if any of those breakers have GFCI or any other electronic logic in them they will not work correctly. Good chance one of those breakers might be GFCI since code requires large 277/480 volt services to have ground fault protection. Of course here you don't need it.
 

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Many of our jobs use 480V gear for 250V and below. It is common when "Heavy Duty" gear is specked for 250 V and below.

The voltage rating of the gear is the maximum voltage it can be used at.

Roger
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Many of our jobs use 480V gear for 250V and below. It is common when "Heavy Duty" gear is specked for 250 V and below.

The voltage rating of the gear is the maximum voltage it can be used at.

Roger

If you are worried that someone might look at the exterior labeling and decide that the gear is energized from your 480 system and not realize that it is still live as long as the 208 system is energized, that is one reason that the two systems need to have distinguishable wires.

If you want to add a label that tells what 208 source it is energized from, that would be helpful but not required.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Many of our jobs use 480V gear for 250V and below. It is common when "Heavy Duty" gear is specked for 250 V and below.

The voltage rating of the gear is the maximum voltage it can be used at.

Roger
Hi, Roger The only problem you would have was if you were doing 480v on 240v equipment. Other than that is the cost difference. Large $$$$$
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Ok, in fact better. However, if any of those breakers have GFCI or any other electronic logic in them they will not work correctly. Good chance one of those breakers might be GFCI since code requires large 277/480 volt services to have ground fault protection. Of course here you don't need it.

It may be a consideration but what you have provided examples of have have NP relationship to voltage at all.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Hello Curtis

Other than that is the cost difference. Large $$$$$
Yes it is and if you're on the selling side of the mark-up you say thank you to the designers. :D

Roger
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
NP? Breakers with electronics have a listed operating range. Same as any auxiliary equipment in the gear.
I'm not aware of any and one of my previous assignment was one of two molded case circuit breaker application engineers for one of the major manufactures.
We had no molded case circuit breakers with electronic trips the voltage was required to be specified. If the were accessories provided that were dependent of the live voltage that should be considered. But that would be rare.
Circuit breakers provide over current protection which have nothing to do with voltage. If an electronic trip was to be provided that had a power monitoring option, yes, it would need to know what the voltage was but the electronics are designed to for adjusting to the voltages.
But, I'm always willing to learn if you can provide an example of a swot h board or panel board consisting of molded case circuit breakers as are referring to. I'm somewhat intrigued.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I'm not aware of any and one of my previous assignment was one of two molded case circuit breaker application engineers for one of the major manufactures.
We had no molded case circuit breakers with electronic trips the voltage was required to be specified. If the were accessories provided that were dependent of the live voltage that should be considered. But that would be rare.
Circuit breakers provide over current protection which have nothing to do with voltage. If an electronic trip was to be provided that had a power monitoring option, yes, it would need to know what the voltage was but the electronics are designed to for adjusting to the voltages.
But, I'm always willing to learn if you can provide an example of a swot h board or panel board consisting of molded case circuit breakers as are referring to. I'm somewhat intrigued.

I was mainly referring to the electronics in say a GFCI breaker. From what I know (I could be wrong) if the breaker is rated 480Y the GFP would not function as it should at 208Y. Thermal magnetic of course doesn't care its mechanical, but if there any electronics in the breaker it needs to be ordered for the actual in service voltage. Such as if one put a 20 amp 120 volt GFCI bolt on breaker in a 277 volt panel it wouldn't be right (in this case the electronic GFP circuit would burn up)
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hi, Roger The only problem you would have was if you were doing 480v on 240v equipment. Other than that is the cost difference. Large $$$$$
I don't think there is usually that much difference. A 200 amp fused 240 volt disconnect is in the same ballpark price as a 200 amp 600 volt disconnect, but if you are applying 480 volts instead of 240 you are getting the bargain because to power the same amount of capacity at 240 you would need the more expensive 400 amp switch, then comes the need for larger conductors, contactors, and other gear.

Ok, in fact better. However, if any of those breakers have GFCI or any other electronic logic in them they will not work correctly. Good chance one of those breakers might be GFCI since code requires large 277/480 volt services to have ground fault protection. Of course here you don't need it.

First if talking panelboards, you don't really see pre-configured "load centers" like you see in the miniature breaker series panels in the over 240 volt lines. You have to specify everything you want and "build" your panel when you order it. There is no automatic ground fault protection included, it must be specified. Ground fault protection is not required on less than 1000 amps either. When it is required it usually only need be on the incoming supply which can either be in or ahead of the equipment in question. BTW it is Ground Fault Protection you are talking about and not Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter.



Many equipment out there operating at 480 volts is using gear rated for up to 600 volts. Some gear only has two rating choices, 240 volts or 600 volts.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I was mainly referring to the electronics in say a GFCI breaker. From what I know (I could be wrong) if the breaker is rated 480Y the GFP would not function as it should at 208Y. Thermal magnetic of course doesn't care its mechanical, but if there any electronics in the breaker it needs to be ordered for the actual in service voltage. Such as if one put a 20 amp 120 volt GFCI bolt on breaker in a 277 volt panel it wouldn't be right (in this case the electronic GFP circuit would burn up)
Please provide a reference to an example of what you are referring to as I worked as an application and sales engineer for one of the largest manufacturers selling and supporting molded case circuit breakers for 18 years and what you are giving as an example was never an issue with the products that I supported.
As such please include some supporting documents for your what you are assuring as you statements can be misleading.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I don't think there is usually that much difference. A 200 amp fused 240 volt disconnect is in the same ballpark price as a 200 amp 600 volt disconnect, but if you are applying 480 volts instead of 240 you are getting the bargain because to power the same amount of capacity at 240 you would need the more expensive 400 amp switch, then comes the need for larger conductors, contactors, and other gear.



First if talking panelboards, you don't really see pre-configured "load centers" like you see in the miniature breaker series panels in the over 240 volt lines. You have to specify everything you want and "build" your panel when you order it. There is no automatic ground fault protection included, it must be specified. Ground fault protection is not required on less than 1000 amps either. When it is required it usually only need be on the incoming supply which can either be in or ahead of the equipment in question. BTW it is Ground Fault Protection you are talking about and not Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter.

Many equipment out there operating at 480 volts is using gear rated for up to 600 volts. Some gear only has two rating choices, 240 volts or 600 volts.
Common device ratings are 120/240, 240, 277, 277/480, 480, and 600. The ratings are based upon L-G voltage and the prices go up for each.
Then the panels are built based upon L-L and L-G insulation. They also must be braced for their with stand or SCCR.
A 240 panel may identical to a 480 or 600v panel except for some adds added insulation that is included in the 480 and 600v panels. It my be limited to some insulting sleeves slid over some bus connection. But basic bus supports may be identical and the labels are different.
Beyond how the panel is built is the devices themselves.
Is a panel that has all 277/480 or 480v rated devices nameplated 600v?
The panels have to be built to support the devices electrically that will be mounted in then. A panel that has 277/480v devices could be fitted with 480 or 600v devices which is possible but the panel is still labeled 277/480.
As far as pricing goes it may be a matter of functional pricing. A product labeled 240v very well could be the exact same thing as a 480v device except for the label. A 480v device may be identical as A 600v device. Functional pricing in very common.
More expensive doesn't imply that it is actually built better as it may be just the label. In manufacturing these products are it is after more const effective to make products the same but label them diffent because of the added cost of parts and the changes in the manufacturing processes doesn't justify messing around make two entirely different products. It used to be that a simple terminal detail on a device which determined the L-L clearance dictated if the device was either 240 or 480v. When I discovered that I couldn't believe how petty that was. The addition cost of manufacturing 2 different parts and inventory wasn't justified just to collect some extra money for 480v device over a 240v device. But that's was the philosophy in the 1950s -1980s.
As such there is all sorts of stuff going out there but the nameplate on the device is a driving factor.
Also, if a panel has 600v nameplate and rated as such yes, 480v devices can be mounted is it. As such is it a 480v or 600v panel?
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Please provide a reference to an example of what you are referring to as I worked as an application and sales engineer for one of the largest manufacturers selling and supporting molded case circuit breakers for 18 years and what you are giving as an example was never an issue with the products that I supported.
As such please include some supporting documents for your what you are assuring as you statements can be misleading.
For a low power trip device like GFCI electronics, where the chip that does the work probably runs off 5 or 12VDC, it is easy enough to include a power source that is equally happy with any input from 50VAC to 600VAC.

But when you see a GFCI or GFP breaker rated for DC, you have just crossed into the twilight zone. :)
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Please provide a reference to an example of what you are referring to as I worked as an application and sales engineer for one of the largest manufacturers selling and supporting molded case circuit breakers for 18 years and what you are giving as an example was never an issue with the products that I supported.
As such please include some supporting documents for your what you are assuring as you statements can be misleading.


Ok I get that, but my question is are all breakers used in switchgear that have electronics posses the ability to adjust to voltage variants ie are all GFP and electronic breakers intellivolt breakers. I know intellivolt is a trade name applied to lighting but you get my point.

I know some are like Square D GFP (240-600VAC), but when one goes to order a breaker the nominal voltage, type, frame size ect have to be specd. My concern was a 480 volt rated electronic breaker might have been ordered and is being used at 240. If its rated for the full range 200-480VAC ok, but if not that could be an issue.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Ok I get that, but my question is are all breakers used in switchgear that have electronics posses the ability to adjust to voltage variants ie are all GFP and electronic breakers intellivolt breakers. I know intellivolt is a trade name applied to lighting but you get my point.

I know some are like Square D GFP (240-600VAC), but when one goes to order a breaker the nominal voltage, type, frame size ect have to be specd. My concern was a 480 volt rated electronic breaker might have been ordered and is being used at 240. If its rated for the full range 200-480VAC ok, but if not that could be an issue.
You are going to have to tell me because what I'm saying there isn't an issue and you are saying that there is. I willing to consider products that you are referring to if you could provide some literature to illustrate them as such. I've asked you a number of times to show me and now were back to the beginning with no examples, no maybes or what its. Just show me the product and the application that illustrates your point.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I just did a job where I had two different I-line panels, both were 208/120 systems, both were service entrance panels.

I would have to look again, but I seem to recall (looking at AIC ratings) that all the installed breakers were 600 volt breakers. I am pretty sure they were at least 480 volt rated. I do know the 400 amp breakers were type "LA" which I know I have had in 480 volt panels many times before.

I did not specify which breaker types when I ordered, I did specify amperages needed and available fault current. One of these panels did have higher interrupt rating on all breakers because it was a main lug panel utilizing the up to six disconnects rule, the other one had a main and I would assume the lower rated branches were series rated for use with the main.

I would have to look at the panel label again as I don't recall what it said for voltage, but as far as I can tell it was all components that should allow it to be used on 600 volts. It was not factory assembled, it was sent to me in pieces and field assembled, some components even come from local distributor stock.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I just did a job where I had two different I-line panels, both were 208/120 systems, both were service entrance panels.

I would have to look again, but I seem to recall (looking at AIC ratings) that all the installed breakers were 600 volt breakers. I am pretty sure they were at least 480 volt rated. I do know the 400 amp breakers were type "LA" which I know I have had in 480 volt panels many times before.

I did not specify which breaker types when I ordered, I did specify amperages needed and available fault current. One of these panels did have higher interrupt rating on all breakers because it was a main lug panel utilizing the up to six disconnects rule, the other one had a main and I would assume the lower rated branches were series rated for use with the main..

I would have to look at the panel label again as I don't recall what it said for voltage, but as far as I can tell it was all components that should allow it to be used on 600 volts. It was not factory assembled, it was sent to me in pieces and field assembled, some components even come from local distributor stock.

I could understand why the 600v breakers were supplied. The actual interunit pricing is probably the same as for a lower voltage breaker so cost wise it made no difference to the pnlbd/swbd plant. I find it to be very strange that the item was basically sent to yo is a do it yourself kit though.
And I question the kaic rating based upon a series rating and a do it yourself assembly?
And the type 'LA' originated from Westinghouse as a basic 400a frame thermal magnetic breaker. The they were able to engineer that frame into a 600a frame. As such LA3400 and LA3600 which are now provided by Eaton electrical (C-H) which are 600v.
Most industrial/commercial breakers are 600v. It's when you get into the smaller bolt-ons and the in between sizes where they end up rated 240, 277/480, 480v which may be different from one manufacturer to another.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I could understand why the 600v breakers were supplied. The actual interunit pricing is probably the same as for a lower voltage breaker so cost wise it made no difference to the pnlbd/swbd plant. I find it to be very strange that the item was basically sent to yo is a do it yourself kit though.
And I question the kaic rating based upon a series rating and a do it yourself assembly?
And the type 'LA' originated from Westinghouse as a basic 400a frame thermal magnetic breaker. The they were able to engineer that frame into a 600a frame. As such LA3400 and LA3600 which are now provided by Eaton electrical (C-H) which are 600v.
Most industrial/commercial breakers are 600v. It's when you get into the smaller bolt-ons and the in between sizes where they end up rated 240, 277/480, 480v which may be different from one manufacturer to another.

The I-Line panel was designed to be 'field assembled'. I would not be surprised to find that 25% of I-Line panels are actually sold as 'do it your self'.

Series ratings have been engineered by the factory and tested by UL, so why wouldn't they apply to a field assembled panel?

The Square D I-Line LA breaker (400A maximum) has absolutely nothing to do with the old Westinghouse LA breaker (which at one time, prior to 1975, was brand labeled by Square D as part of their ML family).
 
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