Delaware enacts Snitch Law

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kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
Delaware recently enacted what I call a "Snitch" provision as part of their electrician licensing laws.

I just received an email from them outlining some highlights:

Quote:
Duty to Report Unlicensed Persons

In order to prevent unlicensed persons from performing electrical work, owners, operators, managers and supervisors of a business performing electrical services are now required to:

Report any unlicensed person performing electrical work to the Board, in writing, within 10 days of learning that the person is not properly licensed.

Verify that employees or independent contractors are licensed before allowing them to perform electrical services....

Full text of that part of the law can be found here. Scroll down to 1423.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
So everybody either has to be a journeyman or a master electrician ? So is HD or Lowe's going to ask Harry homeowner for their licence before selling a roll of 14-2 romex ?

i suspect not, unless 14-2 becomes a controlled substance.
possession of wire isn't illegal yet, is it? i suspect cutting it
and installing it will shortly be a felony, however.

here's the hook for homeowners doing work:

? 1417. Homeowner's Permits.
(a) Any person, who plans to install that person's own internal wiring,
electrical work or equipment, including the main breaker or fuse, in or
about that person's own home, that is not for sale nor any part for rent,
excluding swimming pools and hot tubs, shall obtain a homeowner's permit.
Permits shall be valid for 1 year. Failure of the homeowner to obtain
a final inspection of the homeowner's work shall be cause for the Board to
cancel the homeowner's permit.

(b) Persons applying for a homeowner's permit shall submit a photo
identification, copy of the deed to the home and title or contract of sale
for the mobile home (if applicable).
(c) Application for a homeowner's
permit shall be available at the Board office in Dover, or by mail. The
Division shall issue the permit only to those persons who fulfill the
requirements of this section.


 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It should be noted that ALL employees of an electrical contractor are required to be licensed in Delaware.


What about apprentices? Most places do not consider them "licensed" but do want them "registered" and want them to be working under supervision of a "license holder".
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
In order to prevent unlicensed persons from performing electrical work, owners, operators, managers and supervisors of a business performing electrical services are now required to:

How much are the owners, operators, managers and supervisors getting paid to play inspector cop?

What is the penalty if one fails to make the report?

I am not saying unlicensed people should be able to do electrical work, I just don't think the requirement to report is kosher. It, in a sense, indentures people. The city / state is not compensating any of the above for doing police type work, nor are they giving anyone an option not to.

What happens if the person that got reported retaliated against the reporting party? If the reporting party was only making the report to 'be legal', who is responsible for any negative outcome?

As citizens, we are not required to report people driving with no license, practicing law with no license or even doing medical work with no license. How is unlicensed electrical work so different it requires, by law, citizens to report it?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How much are the owners, operators, managers and supervisors getting paid to play inspector cop?

What is the penalty if one fails to make the report?

I am not saying unlicensed people should be able to do electrical work, I just don't think the requirement to report is kosher. It, in a sense, indentures people. The city / state is not compensating any of the above for doing police type work, nor are they giving anyone an option not to.

What happens if the person that got reported retaliated against the reporting party? If the reporting party was only making the report to 'be legal', who is responsible for any negative outcome?

As citizens, we are not required to report people driving with no license, practicing law with no license or even doing medical work with no license. How is unlicensed electrical work so different it requires, by law, citizens to report it?

Well gee, their AHJ is probably under budgeted and understaffed, so they were just hoping for some help here:)

But don't make any mistakes on anything you are genuinely trying your best to do correctly as you will incur very heavy penalties for any wrongdoing.:huh:
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
How much are the owners, operators, managers and supervisors getting paid to play inspector cop?

The link in the OP, says that it applies just to employees of the "owners, operators, managers and supervisors". There is nothing in the cited section that pertains to reporting people not "working for or under his or her supervision".
 

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
This seems strange to me. If it's already illegal to employ an unlicensed person to do electrical work, wouldn't EC's already require interviewees to show proof of licensing when they're hired? Then the EC knows when each person's license expires and can keep tabs as those dates arrive, and make sure they get renewed. Trucking companies have to do this sort of thing with driver licenses, so why would it be different for Contractors?

On the other hand, since employing an unlicensed person is already illegal (meaning the owner/supervisor/etc. is already breaking the law by employing that person), does anybody really think a company who hires/employs unlicensed people is ever going to file a report? All it does is prove the company broke the law by employing that unlicensed person!

It seems to me that the only reason to have this law is so you have an additional charge to slap an employer with if he's caught using an unlicensed individual to do electrical work. Now, instead of just being charged with employing an unlicensed electrician (or whatever the lawyers call it), he can also be charged with failure to report.

One question occurred to me as I was thinking about this: is it also illegal to fire an unlicensed employee for being unlicensed?

I know it sounds absurd, but that's the way the law works (or used to work, anyway) here in California regarding illegal immigrants. Employing an illegal immigrant is a crime, but it's also a crime to fire someone just for being an illegal immigrant. I know a farmer who got into some trouble over this when he hired somebody on a valid work visa, but the worker stayed after the visa expired. All of a sudden the farmer was breaking the law by continuing to employ the guy, who was now in the country illegally, but he couldn't fire him because that would be illegal too.

Just wondering if this DE law (or the Contractor laws in any other state, for that matter) contains a similar Catch-22.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This seems strange to me. If it's already illegal to employ an unlicensed person to do electrical work, wouldn't EC's already require interviewees to show proof of licensing when they're hired? Then the EC knows when each person's license expires and can keep tabs as those dates arrive, and make sure they get renewed. Trucking companies have to do this sort of thing with driver licenses, so why would it be different for Contractors?

On the other hand, since employing an unlicensed person is already illegal (meaning the owner/supervisor/etc. is already breaking the law by employing that person), does anybody really think a company who hires/employs unlicensed people is ever going to file a report? All it does is prove the company broke the law by employing that unlicensed person!

It seems to me that the only reason to have this law is so you have an additional charge to slap an employer with if he's caught using an unlicensed individual to do electrical work. Now, instead of just being charged with employing an unlicensed electrician (or whatever the lawyers call it), he can also be charged with failure to report.

One question occurred to me as I was thinking about this: is it also illegal to fire an unlicensed employee for being unlicensed?

I know it sounds absurd, but that's the way the law works (or used to work, anyway) here in California regarding illegal immigrants. Employing an illegal immigrant is a crime, but it's also a crime to fire someone just for being an illegal immigrant. I know a farmer who got into some trouble over this when he hired somebody on a valid work visa, but the worker stayed after the visa expired. All of a sudden the farmer was breaking the law by continuing to employ the guy, who was now in the country illegally, but he couldn't fire him because that would be illegal too.

Just wondering if this DE law (or the Contractor laws in any other state, for that matter) contains a similar Catch-22.

Makes some sense when it comes to the extra fines, yet I don't necessarily know just how ethical I think such a thing is.

Not that it is something that effects me in any way that I know of but a few years back they created a "stamp" similar to cigarette stamps for marijuana. The idea is when they bust someone for selling, they can also assess an extra fine for not having a stamp. Does it really make sense to fine someone for not paying a tax on something that is illegal in the first place?
Only people buying the stamp other than offenders were collectors, I know, really hard to believe that isn't it?:roll:
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Delaware recently enacted what I call a "Snitch" provision as part of their electrician licensing laws.

I just received an email from them outlining some highlights:

Quote:
Duty to Report Unlicensed Persons

In order to prevent unlicensed persons from performing electrical work, owners, operators, managers and supervisors of a business performing electrical services are now required to:

Report any unlicensed person performing electrical work to the Board, in writing, within 10 days of learning that the person is not properly licensed.

Verify that employees or independent contractors are licensed before allowing them to perform electrical services....

Full text of that part of the law can be found here. Scroll down to 1423.

So far most if not all of the comments have centered around the duty of an employer to report offenses within his company or his subcontractors. The full language of the law also seems to require each employer to report any instances of unlicensed work he becomes aware of, even if it is not even at his job site.
I can see someone being fined for not reporting that his homeowner customer once did some unlicensed work in his own home, legal or not, and for hire or not.
(I would guess that Delaware does not have any provisions for homeowners to do their own work unlike the situation in Maryland, since the Snitch Law does not mention someone doing electrical work illegally, just without a license.)

And of course if one of your competitors happens to hire an unlicensed "helper" who oversteps the bounds set by the licensing board, you are luckily able to excuse yourself from any potential criticism by pointing out that the law required you to report him. :)

PS: For those interested in another development in this general area, check out this thread.

PPS: And there does not seem to be any provision for making the report anonymously.

PPPS: The full text of the law relates only to someone working "for him" or "under his supervision. "
 
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kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
So everybody either has to be a journeyman or a master electrician ? ....

What about apprentices? Most places do not consider them "licensed" but do want them "registered" and want them to be working under supervision of a "license holder".

In Delaware, apprentices are also required to be licensed. The catch is you don't qualify to get one unless you are enrolled in a state-approved apprenticeship program. :happysad:

Big Brother at its worst ....
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
And that includes subcontractors.

Ever sub out part of your work? :blink:
I was referring only to the first part where that clause is present. The second part applies it also to subs, but between the two of them it still limits it to people working on your job site doing work that you are paying for.
It goes even further than requiring you to report non-compliant subs, it requires you to take positive action to check up on them.
For your own employees, you just have to report it after the fact if you become aware that somebody has faked his credentials.

I take all of that about subcontractors back after looking again at the actual language.....

It is also not clear to me that it is intended to apply to subcontractors, since you would not be directly supervising their work, just looking at the results.

(c) An owner, operator, manager, or supervisor of a business performing electrical services must check to see if an employee or independent contractor has the proper license under subchapter II of this chapter before allowing such employee or independent contractor to perform electrical work for such owner, operator, manager or supervisor.

It is also noteworthy that there is no penalty specified for failing to snitch, at least not in the published text. Just penalties for the unlicensed individual who did the work.

The language "independent contractor" is used in the tax code to describe an individual, not a group or company, who works largely without supervision on a task assigned by the management and has control over his own hours and working methods as long as he delivers the contracted results.
In the tax code, it identifies somebody who does not get a W-2 form from the company they are doing the work for, NOR do they get a W-2 from some other company who contracts out their work to the first company.
It would typically apply to a consultant or a freelancer, not to the employees of a subcontractor per se.

Last point: I think the language of the law is badly flawed in that it allows a large range of exceptions to the licensing requirement (in-house, DOT, agricultural), but does not say that this does not constitute electrical work, just that an electrical license is not necessary for the person doing that work.
Yet someone who hires such a person is required to report continuously to the board all of the electrical work that person does, since they are unlicensed.
Clearly not their intention, but that is the way it reads. :)

I guess you could argue that the second requirement for reportable incidents namely that the person does not have the license required by subchapter II is not met because no license is required in those cases. Hmmm.


Either this is nothing but a "marijuana stamp" law or they are truly interested in collecting valid statistics on work done by unlicensed persons.
 
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mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Florida has always been tough on unlicensed contracting. During the winter gypsys will come down and rip off the elderly snow birds (winter residents).

Aiding and abetting is unlawful as well - knowingly hiring an unlicensed contractor.

During a state of emergency it's a felony and they get arrested on the job site. It's simple to figure out - find a job with no permits and go up to the greenest guy on the site and ask him who gives him his pay.

There are also contractor licensing/ workmen's comp sweeps at random.

The licensing board does not have jurisdiction over unlicensed activity so they build the case and forward it to the state attorney's office for prosecution.

Anyone who holds a license is required to report to the board any known violation of the licensing laws, which means ratting out unlicensed people.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Anyone who holds a license is required to report to the board any known violation of the licensing laws, which means ratting out unlicensed people.

Just like in the OP, this is the part I have the most issue with.

It more less says it is illegal to MYOB. I don't have a problem with people ratting out the unlicensed if they wish to do so, but to tell them they must do so is wrong. What is the penalty for not doing so, and how is it going to be proven in majority of cases?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Just like in the OP, this is the part I have the most issue with.

It more less says it is illegal to MYOB. I don't have a problem with people ratting out the unlicensed if they wish to do so, but to tell them they must do so is wrong. What is the penalty for not doing so, and how is it going to be proven in majority of cases?

Actually, it comes right out and says it's illegal to MYOB.

So, what if the owner hires his unlicensed son in law and only the owner and the HR person knew it. The HR person would have to choose between being legal and snitching on his boss and probably getting fired, or staying quiet in his cubicle to keep his job secure.

Why don't we try to save the planet and make it a law that if an employee knows a business is violating EPA laws, they must report it?

Any law that requires people to rat out others sounds like Nazi rule, to me.

If they REALLY wanted compliance, they would allow for anonymous tips and offer substantial rewards for information leading to a conviction.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What if the laws said you must report motorists that you see commit violations? :huh:

What if nearly every incident seen was reported if the above were true?:eek:

I guess we may have safer roads.
 

kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
...For your own employees, you just have to report it after the fact if you become aware that somebody has faked his credentials....

A non-issue, since anyone can go to the state website and verify whether someone is licensed or not. :jawdrop:

I would not hire anyone without performing that simple background check first.
 
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