120/240 panel on 480 system

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just the cowboy

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newburgh,ny
don't dod it

don't dod it

When I was an apprentice I installed a reversing switch in a Simpson meter, it was the wrong switch only 250v. When it failed on the first use it blew the meter in half that was cradled in my arm OUCH:huh:. They do not have the seperation distance as 600v.
Electricity will jump x inchs/volt
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Aside from being a blatant violation of everything the NEC stands for, this is just plain stupid, and on several levels.

Voltage ratings in things like panelboards and breakers have to do with two main issues: Clearances between live parts and the mechanical forces that happen as a result of the amount of energy in a fault.

If you use equipment rated for a voltage class lower than the applied voltage, ie 480V (600V class) on a 300V class design, you run a significant risk of flashover by direct line-to-line arcing across the air gap, or creepage across surfaces. Maybe not at first, but over time as dust builds up, it will get worse. For 300V class equipment, the minimum air gap must be 3/4", for 600V class it must be 1". Creepage distance at 300V class is about 1-1/4", for 600V class it's 2". So using equipment with a lower voltage class means there will be less distance in both categories, hence it takes less in terms of adverse conditions such as dust and moisture in the air to cause a flashover.

When it happens then, there is a fault. The amount of energy in that fault at 480V will be much much higher than the 240V rated devices are able to withstand. Standard Q0 breakers are only rated to safely interrupt 10kA. You would be hard pressed to find a 480V distribution system with that low of an Available Fault Current, most likely it will be 25kA or more. But lets even say is is still 10kA. 10,000A at 240V is 2.4MVA of power, which is what the Q0 is designed to handle, whereas 10,000A at 480V is 4.8MVA of power. That means that the physical forces that the little plastic parts have to hold up against while trying to interrupt that energy as the breaker opens will be TWICE what the breaker is designed for. That will turn the breaker into a bomb.

Then there is the entire issue of Arc Flash safety... :jawdrop:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks for the detailed info and analysis. Fortunately the fault current would be relatively low: the service drop is almost 300 feet long and the feeder is 180 feet.
It is probably relatively low, but you also need to know conductor size, type, and information on the capacity and impedance of the source to really know what you have for available fault current.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Right its clearly a code violation, but what will happen? Could a breaker just blow out during normal use? Will it still clear faults at the appropriate current level? Maybe it will clear a fault but be destroyed in the process?

Several months ago I gave someone a price to run a 100 amp 277/480 feeder to a machine shop. It was about a 180 foot run through an old timber frame building - not a simple run by any means. They didnt think they could afford it so I looked into doing the run with aluminum MC and found some 5 wire #1 al MC that was cheaper than pipe and THHN not to mention the labor savings. Gave them the new lower price and didnt hear anything for a while. Send them an email offering to tell them what they needed and they could pick the stuff up and do most of the labor and I would make the connections - I was busy then and didnt really need the work and they were setting up a big glass/welding/machine shop for artists which I thought was cool so I wanted to help them out. Never heard anything. Poke my head in there the other day and see that they took care of it: Ran #2 NM thru 1 1/4 EMT and used a 120/240 load center on the load end. Anyway, I have never seen or considered using a 240 panel on a 480 system and just curious what might happen here....

Now that you know of the violation you now maybe negligent if you do not alert the AHJ. You know of the hazard that exist and if injury or death occurs due to the voilation there is a good chance you are part responsible. If you had not done a follow up as a professional there would be no liability IMO.
 
Now that you know of the violation you now maybe negligent if you do not alert the AHJ. You know of the hazard that exist and if injury or death occurs due to the voilation there is a good chance you are part responsible. If you had not done a follow up as a professional there would be no liability IMO.

I Could get bit by a rabid bat tonight and not notice. When symptoms set in my only chance will be the Milwaukee protocol. My chances are about 1 out of 9. I am lucky and am cured. On the way home from the hospital I am killed by an air conditioner that falls out of a Window. The electrician who installed the power for it is successfully sued because he didnt use a twistlock and the jury is convinced by the prosecution that although not required by electrical codes, the electrician should have anticipated this outcome. I do appreciate you taking the time to comment but I was looking to further my knowledge on electrical component failure from excessive voltage not wacky theories on liability and legal advice from electricians ;)
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
I was not stating a wacky theory -- next time open your code book (90.7) and not a can of worms . Some professionals understand the importance of responsibility and take it seriously. I take it you will ignore the voilation as NIBMY being the good guy you are.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I was not stating a wacky theory -- next time open your code book (90.7) and not a can of worms . Some professionals understand the importance of responsibility and take it seriously. I take it you will ignore the voilation as NIBMY being the good guy you are.


How can you cite someone for 90.7, or any other NEC section for that matter, when they simply observed something done by someone else and had nothing to do with the installation otherwise? Code violations can be proven to exist, liability for something you did not do is completely outside the scope of the NEC.

Did you read most of this thread? The guy was asked to connect the equipment, planned to do it correctly, then was told he was too expensive and was not awarded the job. I think most will agree his liability for anything associated with this should end with the fact he was not awarded the job.

He did at some point find his way back to the place and then saw how someone did the job - improperly. You saying he is liable now should something go wrong? I wouldn't be surprised if he would be brought into any kind of lawsuit just because when something bad like that happens they always try to blame anyone but themselves for wrongdoing, but they would still have to prove he did something wrong before he is in much trouble of any kind. Hopefully his liability insurance kicks in or hires good attorneys to be on his side if necessary.
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Did you read most of this thread? The guy was asked to connect the equipment, planned to do it correctly, then was told he was too expensive and was not awarded the job. I think most will agree his liability for anything associated with this should end with the fact he was not awarded the job.
Do the new state or local law(s) which mandate reporting of unsafe conditions observed outside the scope of work only apply to someone who is in fact working under contract at the site? Or will folks have to report things seen as part of giving an estimate? (Not that that would apply here, since the eventual unsafe condition did not exist at the time of the estimate.)
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
UL Standards require greater spacing, higher barriers, and arc chutes for 480. Using 240 rated equipment on a 480 system makes it more likely that there will be a line-to-line fault, caused by something as simple as a little moisture in the air or dust.

Likewise, it's quite possible that a 250 rated switch will not interrupt even 277 under load. I once made this mistake with a simple light switch - and you could not turn the light off.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Do the new state or local law(s) which mandate reporting of unsafe conditions observed outside the scope of work only apply to someone who is in fact working under contract at the site? Or will folks have to report things seen as part of giving an estimate? (Not that that would apply here, since the eventual unsafe condition did not exist at the time of the estimate.)

If I had to report unsafe conditions to "big brother" every time I saw them, very few would be allowed to have electric power on their premises. Even if something passes an inspection when it is new, don't think things don't eventually happen over time and something either gets damaged, altered or added sometime later. Is a contractor responsible for anything and everything that may go wrong at this place just because he entered the door either for prospective work, or for actually doing work?

Being blamed is not the same as having a judgement saying you were at fault. They can try to blame you, just because they can, they still have to convince a judge/jury you did something wrong before you owe any compensation of any kind.

I would have walked away from the job in the OP here also, but certainly would hope just because I seen what someone else did that I would not be liable for anything that may go wrong, and certainly hope that the AHJ never requires me to report such incidents, because once I was turned down on the original job IMO nothing about it is any of my business anymore.

That said if I had concerns about something, and depending on just how close I was to possibly doing the job before being told I was too expensive, (and this may not work in all jurisdictions) I may file a permit for the job - when the inspector finally asks me to see the job, or finds the horrible installation on his own because he has paperwork telling him there is work to inspect there, I can claim I filed the permit thinking I had the job, then owner backed out on me. This gets me off the hook with the inspector, maybe not real easy, but most of the inspectors I have been around much at all will know right away I did not do that work. Then inspector knows the work was done, and will next want to know who did it. If it was someone licensed, they are going to have some penalties to pay and if they have enough similar incidents maybe even will be considered for license revocation. If done by owner or unlicensed people, they kind of get a slap on the hands type of fine at the worst, but now that AHJ knows about the project, they will not just let it go, it must be corrected - by someone properly licensed (exemption for homeowners working on their "primary" residence), or some resolution that eliminates the entire installation could be made, or AHJ does have the authority to have service disconnected if deemed necessary. That last part usually does help owners decide to comply.

Some of the more extreme measures are not exercised very often, but are there as an option if needed, and owners are shown what the laws are and given a reasonable opportunity to comply with the laws.

Then there is the fact that most agricultural installations in this state are exempt from requiring permits, making it easier for owners of those installs to get away with something like described in this thread. But should something go wrong - the laws still say it is unlawful for someone to do electrical work for someone else if they are not licensed to do that work. That law itself has nothing to do with permits or codes and everything to do with who is qualified to do the work. So even if a permit is not required, you still CYA if you follow codes and standards, and are qualified to do such work.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Thanks for the detailed info and analysis. Fortunately the fault current would be relatively low: the service drop is almost 300 feet long and the feeder is 180 feet.

several points here, based on my experience, which you *do not* want to
duplicate. trust me on this.

you have knowledge of a very hazardous situation. there is public documentation
of that knowledge.

if i were you, monday morning, i would go to the AHJ, and inform them of an
unsafe situation, what it is, and where it is. make sure you document that
you have reported this unsafe condition to the responsible agency.

do it in person. don't depend on a phone conversation in this matter.

i had a situation something like this. i did no work. i cautioned both the
property owner and the tenant of the danger involved in the situation.

a year later, there was a death.

you DO NOT want to be explaining how you aren't responsible to a grand
jury. trust me. you just don't.

six months after that, i was named along with 15 other people, and sued
for $2.5 million.

getcher ass down there monday morning, and extricate yourself from this.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
several points here, based on my experience, which you *do not* want to
duplicate. trust me on this.

you have knowledge of a very hazardous situation. there is public documentation
of that knowledge.

if i were you, monday morning, i would go to the AHJ, and inform them of an
unsafe situation, what it is, and where it is. make sure you document that
you have reported this unsafe condition to the responsible agency.

do it in person. don't depend on a phone conversation in this matter.

i had a situation something like this. i did no work. i cautioned both the
property owner and the tenant of the danger involved in the situation.

a year later, there was a death.

you DO NOT want to be explaining how you aren't responsible to a grand
jury. trust me. you just don't.

six months after that, i was named along with 15 other people, and sued
for $2.5 million.

getcher ass down there monday morning, and extricate yourself from this.

You were being sued fro $2.5 million, but were you found negligent of anything? There is a difference between being pointed at and being proven guilty of something. Being the tattle tale, may or may not be what everyone wants to be, but at least you did go to the owner and inform them of the danger. It was then up to them to decide what to do. Like I have said, when in desperation, people will point the finger at any chance they get, but still need to provide proof of your negligence. By going to AHJ now, you are either indirectly preventing that lawsuit from ever happening, or at very least getting one more party (that will have some significance to a judge or jury) on your side of the lawsuit.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
not wacky theories on liability and legal advice from electricians ;)

guess what. he's absolutely correct.

i was actually bothering to type a response to this, regarding
my experience with something similar, and what it cost me in
direct dollars and cents.

then i read your comment, and erased it. sorry i bothered to
reply at all. learn on your own dime.

electrofelon.... has a nice ring to it. it'll look good if something
bad happens, and the nice people there said.... "but our electrician
said everything was ok........ "

you didn't say that? tell it to the grand jury. don't bother with the
advice i offered, about making a formal report and letting yourself
off the hook for any liability.

what could possibly go wrong?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
guess what. he's absolutely correct.

i was actually bothering to type a response to this, regarding
my experience with something similar, and what it cost me in
direct dollars and cents.

then i read your comment, and erased it. sorry i bothered to
reply at all. learn on your own dime.

electrofelon.... has a nice ring to it. it'll look good if something
bad happens, and the nice people there said.... "but our electrician
said everything was ok........ "

you didn't say that? tell it to the grand jury. don't bother with the
advice i offered, about making a formal report and letting yourself
off the hook for any liability.

what could possibly go wrong?

How "minor" of an issue are we to report? Even the minor issues are code violations for a reason, but if I reported everytinhg I saw to the AHJ I would have a nearly full time job doing nothing but reporting safety concerns.

Bottom line is you or others can tell your story and we can take that information and use it as we see fit. If I ran into 240 volt equipment supplied by 480 volts, I am probably not calling the AHJ. I am probably telling the owner what the problem is and maybe giving him some examples of what could possibly happen. Maybe if I lived in a metro area I wouldn't see things quite the same way, but around here everyone knows everyone, or at least someone in common. Whistle blowing doesn't make you all that popular, and they spread that information to friends and pretty soon you have a bad name in most of the community, for doing what you maybe thought was the right thing to do.

If things work out a little differently than in the OP, I indirectly inform the AHJ of the problem by filing a permit for work being done at the owners property, and hopefully the AHJ sees the same problem - then he is aware of it and I was not really a tattle tale, but just going about my business as I was otherwise supposed to. The difference in the OP is he proposed an installation, was not awarded the job, then later finds out what was done. Should he have been called back to do other work, there is his opportunity to file a permit for that other work and inspector can find the install in question here (with a little help from the OP if needed).
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
My personal experience is that if you get named in a lawsuit, even if you CLEARLY had no direct connection to it other than your name being on a piece if paper, you can be bled dry by the shark feeding frenzy that takes place. You can be found blameless, but you lose anyway because of the cost of fighting it. You cannot do it without a lawyer, because as soon as the other sharks see that you are not paying into "the brotherhood", they ALL descend on you first.

The only winners are those not named in the lawsuit. Take the time up front to stay off that list as anything but a potential witness.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My personal experience is that if you get named in a lawsuit, even if you CLEARLY had no direct connection to it other than your name being on a piece if paper, you can be bled dry by the shark feeding frenzy that takes place. You can be found blameless, but you lose anyway because of the cost of fighting it. You cannot do it without a lawyer, because as soon as the other sharks see that you are not paying into "the brotherhood", they ALL descend on you first.

The only winners are those not named in the lawsuit. Take the time up front to stay off that list as anything but a potential witness.

And outside the electrical world, the same thing can happen, all you need is someone to accuse you of something and you have the chance of being dragged through the mud even if you end up coming out clean in the end. You are not immune to this if you are living, and if you are dead your next of kin is possibly drug through the mud on your behalf.

People are sued and do lose the lawsuit over some of the dumbest things.

The one thing that is common is the real winners are the attorneys in every case. Even the "losing" attorney of a case collects for his services and goes on to the next case, while someone else possibly has their whole life turned upside down.

We can say we live in a free country, most can understand we still need rules to be fair, but we have made it so complicated that we are not really all that free. You can get away with a lot though until you upset the wrong person.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
How can you cite someone for 90.7, or any other NEC section for that matter, when they simply observed something done by someone else and had nothing to do with the installation otherwise? Code violations can be proven to exist, liability for something you did not do is completely outside the scope of the NEC.

Did you read most of this thread? The guy was asked to connect the equipment, planned to do it correctly, then was told he was too expensive and was not awarded the job. I think most will agree his liability for anything associated with this should end with the fact he was not awarded the job.

He did at some point find his way back to the place and then saw how someone did the job - improperly. You saying he is liable now should something go wrong? I wouldn't be surprised if he would be brought into any kind of lawsuit just because when something bad like that happens they always try to blame anyone but themselves for wrongdoing, but they would still have to prove he did something wrong before he is in much trouble of any kind. Hopefully his liability insurance kicks in or hires good attorneys to be on his side if necessary.

The premise of what I read was the contractor submitted a bid, offered alternatives to be helpful, purposely followed up to personally find code voilation( real life safety issue in a commecrcial setting), and your point is that even though he did not get the contract to install per code and was beat out by either another firm or unqualified personel is to walk away and ignore the circumstances.
Some code violations found are due to code changes, some are found due to age of work and not are all easily fixable.This circumstance is new installation done incorrect. Ignoring the problems should never be the answer, either inform the customer or the AHJ before someones luck runs out. You can't make decisions for the customer but you can give solid advice which is the least one can do. To be worried about big brother looking over your shoulder to doing the right thing is the personal battle everyone deals with, some better than others.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The premise of what I read was the contractor submitted a bid, offered alternatives to be helpful, purposely followed up to personally find code voilation( real life safety issue in a commecrcial setting), and your point is that even though he did not get the contract to install per code and was beat out by either another firm or unqualified personel is to walk away and ignore the circumstances.
Some code violations found are due to code changes, some are found due to age of work and not are all easily fixable.This circumstance is new installation done incorrect. Ignoring the problems should never be the answer, either inform the customer or the AHJ before someones luck runs out. You can't make decisions for the customer but you can give solid advice which is the least one can do. To be worried about big brother looking over your shoulder to doing the right thing is the personal battle everyone deals with, some better than others.
Why does being the whistle blower apply here but not necessarily anywhere else?

Do you report every traffic violation you see? The traffic rules are there for safety, even though some don't see it that way. Do you report all workplace safety violations you see to OSHA even if not related in anyway to your job or at your place of employment? Those can result in serious injury or death also.

One has to pick their own battles when those kind of things come up, there should be no penalty for minding your own business. I do understand there is still possibility of someone dragging you into a lawsuit, but OP did nothing wrong here, and should he ever be penalized for what he did do - that is just a failure of the justice system IMO.

That would be like having a car go flying by you on a highway - obviously breaking some laws, then later finding out it was in a crash. Then the driver or his family blames you for not reporting him, and sues you for damages:( Don't try to say that situation is different. It is the same in many ways, starting with we need to acquire a license to legally be able to drive on public roadways. Having acquired that license means we have an understanding of the rules of the road.
 
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