How do you explain to a lay person that appliance circs should be installed

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ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
On a rewire job I'm doing..........
I'm about done and have mentioned to the owner that in the kitchen the frig and microwave should be on separate circuits.
Those appliances are currently on with the kitchen lighting and bath and garage and couple other things..........

He also relocated a large ac window unit (120v) to a different location.

These kitchen circs and ac where not in my contract.


He is getting the money from an organization for the electrical work. They signed off and I have just completed the job........
but this additional 3 appliances should be addressed.

I had sent a short letter to this organization mentioning of these 3 items... not getting deep into it. I just got off the phone with them,
I was being asked if these items were a safety issue, or was it for convenience, or was it code?

I was kinda able to answer that they could fall under all those headings....

So I was asked to write a proposal for these extra items and explain why they needed to be done.

I'm looking in the book.......one point may bring you to another and to another........you know...

Any suggestions how to get in and out of it real quick and not have to get into everything about it....

trying to find one sentence for each issue in an article if I can.

thanks..

Rich
 
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Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
A little more than one sentence and slightly fudged... :blink:

Electrical code (NFPA 70, aka NEC) requires kitchen receptacles to be served by two or more 20-ampere Small Appliance Branch Circuits [210.52(B)(3)] ***assuming there are countertop receptacles***. Small Appliance Branch Circuits are required to be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes (often greater than watts, never less than). A microwave oven which is typically cord-and-plug connected to one of these circuits can easily be 1200 watts. Other appliances or electrical devices plugged into receptacles on the same circuit as the microwave can result in the circuit easily being overloaded, exceeding the 1500 volt-amperes at which it is calculated. The receptacles of Small Appliance Branch Circuits shall have no other outlet (e.g. lighting) [210.52(B)(2)].

Can't help with the fridge... :(
 
J

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
No time to go through this point-by-point, but if the microwave is also a range hood, then 422.16(B)(4) applies, IMO. 422.16(B)(4)(5) requires a cord-connected range hood to be fed by an individual branch circuit.

Again, assuming that the microwave is installed above the range (i.e. not a countertop unit), then it can't be on the same circuit as the refrigerator (since it has to be on an individual branch circuit).

If you don't buy the argument that an above-the-range microwave is considered a hood, you could also go to 210.52(B), which does not allow such a microwave to be connected to a SABC. 210.52(B) requires the refrigerator to either be on the SABC or its own individual branch circuit. In neither of these scenarios can the refrigerator and microwave be on the same circuit.

Of course, if this customer's microwave is the kind that just sits on the counter, then none of what I just said matters.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Smart $ said:
Ohhh... and while I wrote "can't help with fridge", I meant it being on a dedicated circuit. It is required to be served by a SABC... so it cannot be on a circuit with "other outlet".
Click to expand...

books downstairs. I'm up and turned on this computer..

Is it written that the frige has to be on it's own sabc?
Or in bare bones applications it can go on one of the minimum two sabc required?

I'll go take a walk for the good book. Thanks again..
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
ok.....the way I see it is, the fridge can go on one of the two sabc's, or it's own 20a sabc, or exeption on it's own 15a sabc.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
ritelec said:
ok.....the way I see it is, the fridge can go on one of the two sabc's, or it's own 20a sabc, or exeption on it's own 15a sabc.
Click to expand...
Don't forget it is not "one of the two sabcs". It is "one of the two or more sabcs". Otherwise you would not be able to say the latter part of you reply... :happyyes:

The condensed version is: the fridge must be powered by one of the two or more sabcs.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
GoldDigger said:
Actually, if it is on a dedicated circuit, that circuit would not have to be an SABC, nor would it, IMO, count as one of the required two SABCs if there were only the one dedicated outlet on it.
Click to expand...
I disagree...

210.52(B) said:
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.
Click to expand...
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Smart $ said:
I disagree...
Click to expand...
You are welcome to.
My concerns are whether the SABC designation and the dedicated designation are compatible as well as whether the language you quote requires the refrigerator to be supplied by an SABC or just lists the refrigerator as one of the allowed loads on an SABC.
Reasonable people may differ on that, so I am sure we can too. :)

BTW, I think you are right but do not want to come right out and admit it. :angel:
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Smart $ said:
I disagree...
Click to expand...
I agree with your disagreement:)

It refrigeration equipment in a dwelling kitchen must be on one of the "two or more" SABC's. A "dedicated" circuit is just simply one of those "two or more", and remember you must still serve the counter top areas with at least two of those "two or more" so if the fridge is going to be a dedicated circuit, you will have at least three SABC's.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
If we are going to split hairs, I will offer the observation that the 15A fridge circuit falls in the exception to the rule demanding the fridge be on a 20A SABC; therefore the 15A fridge can be considered a "non-SABC individual branch circuit." If it is a 20A individual branch circuit then I don't care if you call it either. :)
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Smart $ said:
I disagree...
Click to expand...


If the refrigerator were on a dedicated cir and it was 15 amp then it would not be a small appliance branch circuit. If it were a 20 amp dedicated circuit it could be called a small appliance branch circuit however it would not qualify as the two circuits required in the kitchen for the counter area
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
George Stolz said:
If we are going to split hairs, I will offer the observation that the 15A fridge circuit falls in the exception to the rule demanding the fridge be on a 20A SABC; therefore the 15A fridge can be considered a "non-SABC individual branch circuit." If it is a 20A individual branch circuit then I don't care if you call it either. :)
Click to expand...

Dennis Alwon said:
If the refrigerator were on a dedicated cir and it was 15 amp then it would not be a small appliance branch circuit. If it were a 20 amp dedicated circuit it could be called a small appliance branch circuit however it would not qualify as the two circuits required in the kitchen for the counter area
Click to expand...
210.52(B) IMO clearly states which outlets are included in the term SABC, and at the end of (B)(1) says "and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment". This is the rule whether or not the refrigerator is in the kitchen, dining room, breakfast room or pantry, and could be a dedicated 15 amp "SABC" for a refrigerator in any of those locations.

It is still a SABC with an exception that allows it to be 15 amps if the condition of it being a dedicated circuit is followed. You still need at least two more 20 amp SABC's to supply the kitchen counters plus other outlets required to be on SABC's.

However the exception to 220.52(A) does allow us to exclude counting a 15 amp dedicated refrigerator receptacle from the load calculation required in 220.52. It could be interpreted as needing to include 1500VA if it were a 20 amp dedicated receptacle circuit though.
 
StarCat

StarCat

Industrial Engineering Tech
Location
Moab, UT USA
Occupation
Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
Separate circuits for large loads

Separate circuits for large loads

The question for cheapskates is, do you want it to work or would you rather breakers tripping all the time?
Window AC - Dedicated line if I was running it.....I always avoid putting more than one refrigeration load on a single 20A 115v line even if they are small compressors.
Microwave [why would any sane person use one] dedicated line if I was running it....
 
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