Entire panel of breakers tripping off.

[rcarroll]

Character reference

Character reference

For what it's worth, the OP, Scott, was the best apprentice I ever had. His thread is not a hoax or bull crap!
Scott called me with his problem last Friday a.m. The only suggestions I could think of were the panel guts overheating & to contact this site.
Unfortunatley, I'm out of town or would have gone out of my way to verify his problem. Not that I could have helped.
Anyway, I garauntee Scott would NEVER post this as a hoax.
Many thanks to all who have tried to help! :thumbsup:

 

[cowboyjwc]

So being big in the paranormal, I'll ask the questions no one will ask.

1) Does it only happen when any certain child is present?
2) Does he need to be near the panel when it happens?
3) Have they had this problem in previous homes?
4) Take the children into another unit and see if it happens.

 

[FionaZuppa]

So being big in the paranormal, I'll ask the questions no one will ask.

1) Does it only happen when any certain child is present?
2) Does he need to be near the panel when it happens?
3) Have they had this problem in previous homes?
4) Take the children into another unit and see if it happens.

hmy:.........................:lol:

the AF's might have an electrical reason to trip beyond normal trip circumstances. the std breakers do not. i would call Siemens directly and get one of their guys to witness this event.

 

[mgookin]

Which would not explain either the non-AFCI breakers switching off as well or the handles going to the off instead of tripped position.
Not to mention that the arc signature recognition is gated by a minimum current through the breaker for at least most AFCI breakers. (8A ?)

I'd look into geology and other factors.

What does the US Gov't have around this neck of the rock (mountain) in Colorado?

Any strange magnetic fields?

NORAD?

Nukes not being stored properly?

Any strange implications from those crackhead wannabe meteorologists who think they can predict Florida hurricanes from a rock in Colorado while on the take from insurance companies while our insurance rates skyrocket in Florida under organized crime?

In a previous post I suggested a data logging magnetometer. Can OP set one up?

Other than that, get rid of the entire MDP and put in a different brand. Let the customer pay for it.

 

[Jon456]

Since we have another member vouching for the OP's trustworthiness, I think we can dismiss the hoax theory. To me, all the indications point to counterfeit breakers. So far, the only evidence that we have that these are not counterfeit breakers, is the OP's statement that they came directly from Siemens. But that is not conclusive. For example, what if some rogue Siemens employee is stealing production parts from inventory (fore resale on the black market) and replacing them with counterfeits? Sure, it's a long-shot. But it's more plausible than poltergeists or psychokinesis.

The OP really needs to have some of those breakers internally examined.

Meanwhile, the OP should replace all the breakers in that panel with new from a different source and see what happens.

 

[jim dungar]

So far, the only evidence that we have that these are not counterfeit breakers, is the OP's statement that they came directly from Siemens.

Did they come direct from Siemens or through a Siemens distributor or some other source?
This would not be the first time non-original breakers were sold through 'normal industry channels'.

 

[Sierrasparky]

For what it's worth, the OP, Scott, was the best apprentice I ever had. His thread is not a hoax or bull crap!
Scott called me with his problem last Friday a.m. The only suggestions I could think of were the panel guts overheating & to contact this site.
Unfortunatley, I'm out of town or would have gone out of my way to verify his problem. Not that I could have helped.
Anyway, I garauntee Scott would NEVER post this as a hoax.
Many thanks to all who have tried to help! :thumbsup:

Thank you for vouching for your friend and collegue, sounds like you think highly of him. That is great when you keep contact with a ex employee. He must have done good by you.
Now that a hoax is out of the question. I would try to rule out damaged wiring or nuetral in contact with ground .

• replace tripping AFCI with GFCI ,
• Verify that breakers are Genuine
• make sure the breakers are really tripping to off.
• Place a heavy load on the affected circuits and observe. Voltage loss,

 

[Jon456]

It would also be very useful to capture one of these trip events on video. Get a camcorder with a lot of memory and set it to record at a low resolution so you have the maximum recording time. Then put it on a tripod in front of the breaker panel with the door open and the lights on and let it run for hours. MAKE SURE THE VIDEO TIMESTAMP SETTING IS TURNED ON (so no one can mess with the recording without it being apparent).

 

[scolaz]

Ok so here is an update. We removed all the AF breakers in the panel. The home owner is reporting that the breakers are still shutting off. Most of the time every single breaker in the panel has shut off. However a couple of times only about half of them. Also they are telling me that it most always happens when there are many things being used, like washer, dryer, bathrooms, and lights all at the same time. So when there is a load on the system. Which makes sence because when they are not home the breakers stay on. The other thing that has happened 2 more times is that when the garage door between the house and garage is closed hard the breakers turned off.

My next step is to remove the interior of the panel and install a new one with breakers. I will keep this updated as we find out more.

 

[Jon456]

The other thing that has happened 2 more times is that when the garage door between the house and garage is closed hard the breakers turned off.

Is it a manual garage door or one on an electric door opener? If manual, does that mean if you slam the door closed it causes the breakers to trip? How close to the garage door is this panel?

I really want to see photos of the inside of one of these breakers. More and more, the evidence is pointing to counterfeit. When you bought the panel and breakers for this living unit, did they come as a separate shipment from the panels and breakers for the other unit you wired? Or did it arrive as one large shipment of breakers for both units?

 

[domnic]

tripping

tripping

How many times have you been to this job for this problem ?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ok so here is an update. We removed all the AF breakers in the panel. The home owner is reporting that the breakers are still shutting off. Most of the time every single breaker in the panel has shut off. However a couple of times only about half of them. Also they are telling me that it most always happens when there are many things being used, like washer, dryer, bathrooms, and lights all at the same time. So when there is a load on the system. Which makes sence because when they are not home the breakers stay on. The other thing that has happened 2 more times is that when the garage door between the house and garage is closed hard the breakers turned off.

My next step is to remove the interior of the panel and install a new one with breakers. I will keep this updated as we find out more.

Are you able to duplicate these events? In person.
I am intrigued by the garage door issue. Do you recall how you wired this area?
Is there a grouping of wires that could have been damaged by something.

 

[n1ist]

When "about half of them tripped", were the tripped ones all on the same leg?
/mike

 

[pjholguin]

Just a thought, use a different brand panel.

Ok so here is an update. We removed all the AF breakers in the panel. The home owner is reporting that the breakers are still shutting off. Most of the time every single breaker in the panel has shut off. However a couple of times only about half of them. Also they are telling me that it most always happens when there are many things being used, like washer, dryer, bathrooms, and lights all at the same time. So when there is a load on the system. Which makes sence because when they are not home the breakers stay on. The other thing that has happened 2 more times is that when the garage door between the house and garage is closed hard the breakers turned off.

My next step is to remove the interior of the panel and install a new one with breakers. I will keep this updated as we find out more.

 

[ActionDave]

Just a thought, use a different brand panel.

It's a finished house.

 

[scolaz]

Is it a manual garage door or one on an electric door opener? If manual, does that mean if you slam the door closed it causes the breakers to trip? How close to the garage door is this panel?

I really want to see photos of the inside of one of these breakers. More and more, the evidence is pointing to counterfeit. When you bought the panel and breakers for this living unit, did they come as a separate shipment from the panels and breakers for the other unit you wired? Or did it arrive as one large shipment of breakers for both units?

The entire gear pack came from Siemens for the 4 plex. The garage door is the man door into the house not the overhead door.

 

[scolaz]

Just a thought, use a different brand panel.

That is a great idea! It will take longer to change it out over just doing the interior. I will consider that.

 

[scolaz]

Are you able to duplicate these events? In person.
I am intrigued by the garage door issue. Do you recall how you wired this area?
Is there a grouping of wires that could have been damaged by something.

It has been difficult for us to get it to happen when we are there, however it did happen when we right there. It is always possible for the home run wires are damaged and one is damaged for sure. We learned this when we meggered the upstairs bedroom circuits. It has been eliminated.

 

[kwired]

Other than that, get rid of the entire MDP and put in a different brand. Let the customer pay for it.

Sure take the AFCI manufacturer's approach:roll:


Still find it hard to believe that if there are counterfeit breakers or even just defective products for some reason that it only happens in one of the four units that had the materials in question all purchased at one time. More likely that something is different in that one unit more so then there is a difference in breakers in each unit.

 

[Jraef]

Ok, so accepting your rousing endorsement as removing the prank possibility, here's a thought.

What if the existing interior is not bolted down to the can correctly? If so, then ONE breaker trips, and/or the garage door closes, and/or the kids are at home rough housing on the spongy plywood flooring with cheap joists, the resulting rattling of the interior might be causing the rest (or several) of the other breakers to snap to the off position. Wraps up all of the incongruous anomalies; AFCI vs Std trip, full Off vs Trip position, some breakers with no wires connected still moving to Off, inconsistent observation of it happening because the conditions have to be just right etc..

House construction ain't what it used to be. I lived in a house built in 1910 in Seattle, when my kids jumped around, I never felt it in the room next door. My current house, built in 1971, has 3/4" T&G plywood floors with 24" on center 2x6 floor joists (code at the time, I checked). When my 121lb wife comes in the front door and I'm in the back bedroom 40 ft away, I can tell, by the way the house shakes, which room she is in. I added two rooms myself, 1" T&G over 4x6 teated joists, when she goes in those rooms, she can sneak up on me, I have no idea. My load center is on the garage wall, which is next to the largest of the original "spongy floor" rooms. When I'm working in the garage and someone walks through that room, I can see the wall flex. If my panel interior were loose, i think it might cause the breakers to flip Off.