Outside Summer Kitchen 2 small applance circuits

[Optimal1]

I have a single family home with a outside summer kitchen. The house has the main kitchen inside wired per the NEC code.
Is it required to have the outside summer kitchen ( BBQ / Grill ) area with a Grill and sink to be wired as another kitchen with counter top spacing?

 

[GoldDigger]

IMHO, as long as the outside kitchen has all of the elements of a kitchen in the definition, the rules apply.
There may be some issues defining wall space, perhaps to the extent that almost everything is treated as an island, but you still need two SABCs.

 

[Optimal1]

IMHO, as long as the outside kitchen has all of the elements of a kitchen in the definition, the rules apply.
There may be some issues defining wall space, perhaps to the extent that almost everything is treated as an island, but you still need two SABCs.

What about the fact the code says dwelling units. the outside is not part of the dwelling unit. And you are only required to use kitchen for the inside of the required provisions of a single family home. the outside summer kitchen is not part of the dwelling it is the outside recreational area. its not part of the living area????

 

[infinity]

What about the fact the code says dwelling units. the outside is not part of the dwelling unit. And you are only required to use kitchen for the inside of the required provisions of a single family home. the outside summer kitchen is not part of the dwelling it is the outside recreational area. its not part of the living area????

Sounds like a reasonable argument to me.

 

[ritelec]

Is there a hood. If so would it get ducted inside ?

 

[Optimal1]

Sounds like a reasonable argument to me.

Thank you, any feed back is great.

 

[Optimal1]

Would the hood get ducted inside ?

That would depend on if they put one in. and it will depend on where they decide ti run the hood.

 

[ptonsparky]

What about the fact the code says dwelling units. the outside is not part of the dwelling unit. And you are only required to use kitchen for the inside of the required provisions of a single family home. the outside summer kitchen is not part of the dwelling it is the outside recreational area. its not part of the living area????

. I vote not required as well.

Doesnt mean you shouldn't offer it.

 

[Optimal1]

. I vote not required as well.

Doesn'tmean you shouldn't offer it.

I am all for offering the option to the home owner, but making them put all the extra circuits and outlets is very costly for someone.
it is hard for me to tell a customer at the end of there job that an inspector is deciding he feels the the outside summer kitchen is part of the required outlets for a single family dwelling. In the Article 100 Definitions Dwelling units it is all for the inside of the house not outside. and the Definition of a kitchen is to let us know what a kitchen is. and in a single family home if you provide the required kitchen you shouldn't need to have a 2nd kitchen because you put a BBQ and sink outside. and the outside circuits don't have to be on the small appliance branch circuits they can go on any general circuits.

( in 20 years most people only ask for one outlet for a blender and a rotisserie ) they don't ask for a 2nd kitchen. the cost is very different.

Thank you very much.

 

[ritelec]

How different. No afci. Run a 3 wire.

They are putting a sink outside ??

Should they really cry about a couple more bucks for a circuit.

Specially when they want a fridge. Bug lamp. Some lights ??

Run some conduit and one circ for now ?

I might mention. Call it a patio.

If you call it a kitchen. Outdoors. Indoors. On the roof. In the garage. In a crawl space. It's a kitchen

 

[Optimal1]

How different. No afci. Run a 3 wire.

They are putting a sink outside ??

Should they really cry about a couple more bucks for a circuit.

Specially when they want a fridge. Bug lamp. Some lights ??

Run some conduit and one circ for now ?

I might mention. Call it a patio.

If you call it a kitchen. Outdoors. Indoors. On the roof. In the garage. In a crawl space. It's a kitchen

Yes, But its not required to have it, and its outside, so a kitchen outside is not part of the dwelling unit. and all part of the code keep referring back to the same line of dwelling unit. so on the roof in the garage. its not required and should not have to follow the interior code of the house.
Don't forget, outside requires GFI, Bubble covers or W/P covers more labor and material since it is on the back side of the house. and yes i agree with a few or just 2 outlets. i don't mind running two ded circuits out there as well. but making someone wire a outside summer kitchen as a required kitchen is just WRONG. I am not into taking more then I need from my customers and that is why i have been in business for more the 12 years with the same customers. remember you MUST take care of your customers since they are the one paying. Just saying. I appreciate all your input.

 

[John120/240]

Only your AHJ can answer this question. A phone call to your AHJ would be in order. Get his opinion now instead of later. Even if you print this thread & show him how we agree with you, the AHJ's opinion is the one that matters

 

[Dennis Alwon]

210.52 requirements is for dwelling unit outlets. This section includes outlets ouside , inside and even detached structures so imo the kitchen outdoors would be required to have 2 small appliance branch circuit.

 

[ritelec]

KITCHEN

an area with a SINK and permanent provisions for food perpetration and cooking.



I see no reference to inside dwelling unit only.

 

[gadfly56]

KITCHEN

an area with a SINK and permanent provisions for food perpetration and cooking.



I see no reference to inside dwelling unit only.

Seems pretty clear.

If you're running one circuit, how hard is it to run two? Or even three??

 

[K8MHZ]

It amazes me that people that can afford a second, outside kitchen are worried about the cost of an additional electrical circuit. They will probably spend more on the faucet for the sink than it would cost to add one more circuit.

 

[mwm1752]

So are you implying the single family dwelling is interior spaces only -- what about a exterior hottub that is for a single family dwelling -- kitchen is a kitchen

 

[charlie b]

I am working on a design for a high-end residence that has a similar situation. There is a "main building" that has a kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, and the rest of the stuff that comprises a dwelling unit. There is a guest area with two bedrooms and a shared bathroom. It has a roof in common with the main building, so I am not treating it as a separate structure (i.e., I am not limited to feeding it with a single circuit). There is an identical but separate guest area that does not share the same roof. There is also a separate master bedroom suite that does not share the same roof. Neither of these two buildings has a kitchen. So I am treating them as accessory buildings - that is, neither is a dwelling unit, so I don't have to apply the 12 foot spacing rule for wall receptacles, and I don't have to apply the AFCI rules either.

Now more to the point, there is a separate outdoor cooking area near the pool. It has its own roof. It will have a permanent grill and a sink. But it will not have a bathroom or a sleeping area. So I am not calling it a dwelling unit either. You have to walk out of the dwelling unit to get to the outdoor cooking area. So I am not planning to call any circuit that feeds that area a "small appliance branch circuit." I can use only 15 amp circuits if I wish, but I probably won't. I can share the circuit feeding a countertop receptacle with the light over the countertop if I wish. I don't yet have the lighting designer's drawings, so I don't know how I will end up handling those circuits. I will provide a separate panel in the area, and so I will have only a single feeder supplying this building, in compliance with NEC 225.30 (2008 edition - this project is in Hawaii).

 

[charlie b]

Let me take this a step further. I am also working on the design of another high-end residence, this one in California. The plans call for a total of nine structures. Four of them are large enough to be called a "house." Five of them are more the size of the "tiny house" movement. But no two of the structures share a roof. Only one of them has permanent provisions for cooking, sleeping, and sanitation, and I am treating only that one as a "dwelling unit." The other three larger structures do not have either a cooking area or a sleeping area, and are planned to be used for recreational activities (hobbies). The fact that a structure resides on the same property as a dwelling unit does not cause that structure to be part of the dwelling unit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Let me take this a step further. I am also working on the design of another high-end residence, this one in California. The plans call for a total of nine structures. Four of them are large enough to be called a "house." Five of them are more the size of the "tiny house" movement. But no two of the structures share a roof. Only one of them has permanent provisions for cooking, sleeping, and sanitation, and I am treating only that one as a "dwelling unit." The other three larger structures do not have either a cooking area or a sleeping area, and are planned to be used for recreational activities (hobbies). The fact that a structure resides on the same property as a dwelling unit does not cause that structure to be part of the dwelling unit.

Correct but if there were a kitchen there it would need 2 sabc. Detached structures and a kitchen on a deck or porch of A structure is 2 different animals.