1/0 gec exists but connection not vis. Redo split bolt question

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kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jwelectric said:
Exactly and the following statement is not part of anything that can be found in the NEC anywhere. The following is nothing more than a wives tale
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Who's wife? Certainly was not mine she doesn't even know what a dielectric union is, and maybe not even a non dielectric union.:)
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
kwired said:
Who's wife? Certainly was not mine she doesn't even know what a dielectric union is, and maybe not even a non dielectric union.:)
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Just for fun I asked my wife if she could describe a dielectric union. After a few minutes of thought she replied, ?Is it a union of dying electricians or electrical companies that are going out of business??

She couldn?t understand why I was laughing so hard and even got mad. I went to bed on the couch last night without supper or any other benefits due a husband.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jwelectric said:
Just for fun I asked my wife if she could describe a dielectric union. After a few minutes of thought she replied, ?Is it a union of dying electricians or electrical companies that are going out of business??

She couldn?t understand why I was laughing so hard and even got mad. I went to bed on the couch last night without supper or any other benefits due a husband.
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You were supposed to tell her she was correct and leave it at that:)
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
jwelectric said:
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded (1) to the service equipment enclosure, (2) the grounded conductor at the service, (3) the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or (4) to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

No matter what one would think it meant there are only four places any metal water pipe can be bonded and I don’t see to another water pipe listed. (1), (2), (3), and (4) was added by me to making counting those places easier.

Here is what the Code Making Panel had to say in 2008;

5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Mark J. Rochon Master Electrician
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
General Combination metal water piping system(s) separated by nonmetallic water piping system(s) where may become energized installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used.
Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between our metal water piping system and today’s code is not recognizing these changes.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping system.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
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Old fart here...:)

So if the effective ground-fault current path of a section of copper pipe to a bathroom has been isolated and insulated by a short section of plastic, what is the proper way, with what sized conductor, for the electrician to make it code compliant? Or is it already because it's not likely to become energized? ...( which seems to me to be undefined )

thanks
 
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jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
realolman said:
Old fart here... So if the effective ground-fault current path of a section of copper pipe to a bathroom has been isolated and insulated by a short section of plastic, what is the proper way, with what sized conductor, for the electrician to make it code compliant? Or is it already because it's not likely to become energized? ...( which seems to me to be undefined ) thanks
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Unless that section of metal pipe has something electrical connected to it how is it going to become energized?
The Panel Statement is very clear about it being a complete metal piping system in order to require the Table 250.66 bond and as you have pointed out this system is not a complete metal piping system.
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
jwelectric said:
Unless that section of metal pipe has something electrical connected to it how is it going to become energized?
The Panel Statement is very clear about it being a complete metal piping system in order to require the Table 250.66 bond and as you have pointed out this system is not a complete metal piping system.
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I'm not really concerned with the requirements.... I'm concerned with the metallic conductive portions of it becoming energized and hazardous.... as I think the requirements should be.

I don't see why it would be more desirable to bond a complete system than an insulated portion of a system. Just the opposite.

I can see that it might not be a requirement enforceable by an inspector, but is there a problem with running a piece of #10 from the hot to the cold. Would there be a problem created by jumpering around a piece of plastic from one piece of copper water pipe to the other with a piece of 10?

If some sort of voltage were discovered on the insulated piece of copper existed in the OP's post would it be necessary to run a piece of 1/0 back to one of the four points you listed?
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
jwelectric said:
Unless that section of metal pipe has something electrical connected to it how is it going to become energized?
The Panel Statement is very clear about it being a complete metal piping system in order to require the Table 250.66 bond and as you have pointed out this system is not a complete metal piping system.
Click to expand...

I'm not really concerned with the requirements.... I'm concerned with the metallic conductive portions of it becoming energized and hazardous.... as I think the requirements should be.

I don't see why it would be more desirable to bond a complete system than an insulated portion of a system. Just the opposite.

I can see that it might not be a requirement enforceable by an inspector, but is there a problem with running a piece of #10 from the hot to the cold. Would there be a problem created by jumpering around a piece of plastic from one piece of copper water pipe to the other with a piece of 10?

If some sort of voltage were discovered on a shower head connected to an insulated piece of copper that existed in the OP's post,, would it be necessary to run a piece of 1/0 back to one of the four points you listed?
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
jwelectric said:
Just how is this shower head getting energized?
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I don't know ...that seems to me to be irrelevent. Is it impossible?

I think the point is exactly what the submitter of the proposal that you posted stated it to be: metallic piping seperated by non metallic piping.

I think it is a valid point.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jwelectric said:
Just how is this shower head getting energized?
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House I just did recently - was roughed in with copper tubing with supplies stubbed into crawlspace. Later on when they ran lines in crawlspace there was PEX tubing involved. I did no additional bonding except for bonding whirlpool pump to water lines that are local to the whirlpool with a #8 bonding jumper. But other plumbing fixtures you have a good point, what is going to energize the piping?

ActionDave said:
What about cast iron drain pipes with no hub fittings?
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Metallic drain lines are not common anymore but where they are existing you never see any bonding of them either. I have seen them introduce voltages in tubs and showers before. If the metallic drain piping is continuous into the earth then this piping system is at earth potential. If water piping is all metallic and bonded to electrical system then you have a potential equal to the voltage drop on the neutral between the water piping and drain piping.
 
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