12 gauge to the room, 14 for lights and 3-way

[dnem]

In Mass this is expressed in rule #3 .My question is How do we add without increasing the magnitude:-?

Rule 3. Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation.

Let me run a scenerio by you and you tell me how this rule 3 would apply.

Existing is a service and a subpanel. . Subpanel feed without metal conduit and without an equipment grounding conductor. . Ground bar and subpanel housing are either floating or are bonded to the neutral. . No, let's change that and say that there is no ground bar, all circuit grounds in the subpanel are on the neutral bar and we'll say the panerl housing is not bonded to anything.

Your scope of work is to add a circuit in an addition. . Does rule 3 allow you to run your HR back to that subpanel without fixing the subpanel ? . If yes, where do you land your equipment ground wire from your new homerun.

David

 

[M. D.]

To run new circuits from what is already a violation??

I would say without using rule 3 ,which I think would apply , one could cite 250.142(B) & 250.24 (A)(5) and either "fix" it or run the circuit back to the service equipment.

 

[M. D.]

David , the question I have is when does adding to an installation in violation not increase the magnitude of the violation.??
Not enough staples in the original cable run for example ,... if I were to cut a J-box in and feed an outlet I guess I have not increased the magnitude of the original offense.

 

[iwire]

Your scope of work is to add a circuit in an addition. . Does rule 3 allow you to run your HR back to that subpanel without fixing the subpanel ?

No as part of rule 3 tells us new work will be in compliance.

So I could add a new circuit out of the service panel and ignore the problem with the sub panel.

If I tried to run to the sub panel the new work would be in violation.

 

[M. D.]

No as part of rule 3 tells us new work will be in compliance.

So I could add a new circuit out of the service panel and ignore the problem with the sub panel.

If I tried to run to the sub panel the new work would be in violation.

But would it also increase the magnitude of the existing violation? (which is what think David is driving at.)

I say yes .

 

[iwire]

I say yes .

How?

If I take a job remodeling a kitchen and get my circuits from the service panel that will not 'increase the magnitude of a violation' in a sub panel in another area.

I would say if I tried to bring my new circuits from a miss wired sub panel that would increase the magnitude of the violation.

 

[M. D.]

How?


I would say if I tried to bring my new circuits from a miss wired sub panel that would increase the magnitude of the violation.[/quote

what I was trying to say is that adding new circuits to this sub panel would be a violation and increase the magnitude of the existing violation.

 

[dnem]

Bob and M.D.

I think you guys are saying the same thing. . I think you are agreeing but you don't realize it yet.

 

[M. D.]

We are, and I do

 

[Mr. Bill]

I think that lighting is allowed to use #14 AWG and use a 20A circuit breaker. My reasoning...

If branch circuit:
210.20(B) states that fixture wires shall be protected in accordance with 240.5

240.5(B)(2) permits fixture wires connected to a 20A circuit to be 14 AWG and larger.
_________________________________________________________
If tap conductor:
240.4(D) states #14 AWG shall not have an OCP greater than 15A, unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or 240.4(G).

240.4(E)(2) refers to 240.5(B)(2) for permitted OCP of fixture wire.

240.5(B)(2) permits fixture wires connected to a 20A circuit to be 14 AWG and larger.


If you look up 'Fixtures' in the Index at the back of the NEC it says, "see Luminaires".

 

[M. D.]

These are branch circuit conductors not fixture wires or taps.

 

[Mr. Bill]

After reading 402 that makes sense. Why does 240.5(B)(2) permit run lengths of 30m (100ft) for 16 AWG? Where would a fixture wire ever be that long?

 

[dnem]

Where would a fixture wire ever be that long?

Go into a factory and start bolting flourescent fixtures end-to-end and keep going till you hit 100 feet.