1970s Georga Residenital Wiring

[wilcharl]

Folks:

Long time user of this site for reference at work, but a visit to my parents house Labor Day weekend brought my first posting.

Their house was built in 1972 in Atlanta Georiga. Questions I have is why the requirement for the below:

1) The house is wired with NM cable . 100% copper (not clad) However, at every device, the NM cable is cut within an inch of entering the box and both the conductor and neutral are crimped to about a 3" tail before entering the device. Lighting circuits, recepticles, switches, all the same. One of the strangest things I have seen. My late grandmothers house , in the same neighborhood turns out to be the same. All the crimps are in good quality electrical tape . Just curious what was the driving force behind this, was this some wonkey requiremnet? I could see if it was aluminum and they did a mechanical crimp to copper but this is all 100% copper. I even thought maybe they did it for a quicker install (kind of a 1970s version of P&S plug tails) to install the devices quicker but they were stab-in outlets so that doesn't make sense... Wondering what made them do this?????


2) Their service... power comes overhead, hits a weatherhead, enters the house (SE cable) drapes across the attic goes about 25 feet into a brick wall to the meter box. Comes out of the meter box goes another 50 feet or so before it hits the panel. I do not believe it is fused which is scaring me with the loose SE cable draped across the attic. The weirdness here is, the meterbox is stamped PROPERTY OF GEORGiA POWER, and the loadcenter had a sticker stating that it was owned and maintained by Georgia Power. Never heard of the power company owning that far into your house. Georgia Power clearly states on their website and in their blue book that the watherhead and SE cable to the meter and to the panel are customer owned but I wonder if this was perhaps grandfathered in since its stamped property of Georgia Power and they could fix it ( the cable has some damage in the attic from being yanked after a tree came down on the drop from the street)


Appreciate it if some old timer or someone that has been around more then me has seen either of these instances before and has some logic behind them !

 

[growler]

Folks:

Long time user of this site for reference at work, but a visit to my parents house Labor Day weekend brought my first posting.

Their house was built in 1972 in Atlanta Georiga. Questions I have is why the requirement for the below:

1) The house is wired with NM cable . 100% copper (not clad) However, at every device, the NM cable is cut within an inch of entering the box and both the conductor and neutral are crimped to about a 3" tail before entering the device. Lighting circuits, recepticles, switches, all the same. One of the strangest things I have seen. My late grandmothers house , in the same neighborhood turns out to be the same. All the crimps are in good quality electrical tape . Just curious what was the driving force behind this, was this some wonkey requiremnet? I could see if it was aluminum and they did a mechanical crimp to copper but this is all 100% copper. I even thought maybe they did it for a quicker install (kind of a 1970s version of P&S plug tails) to install the devices quicker but they were stab-in outlets so that doesn't make sense... Wondering what made them do this?????



Appreciate it if some old timer or someone that has been around more then me has seen either of these instances before and has some logic behind them !

I have no idea why they did it that way but I can say that it's not common becasue I have never seen a house wired like that and I have worked all over the Atlanta area.

I would think that it was the choice of the electrician doing the work. I know of a house where they used solder connections but also not common for the time it was wired.

 

[growler]

2) Their service... power comes overhead, hits a weatherhead, enters the house (SE cable) drapes across the attic goes about 25 feet into a brick wall to the meter box. Comes out of the meter box goes another 50 feet or so before it hits the panel. I do not believe it is fused which is scaring me with the loose SE cable draped across the attic. The weirdness here is, the meterbox is stamped PROPERTY OF GEORGiA POWER, and the loadcenter had a sticker stating that it was owned and maintained by Georgia Power. Never heard of the power company owning that far into your house. Georgia Power clearly states on their website and in their blue book that the watherhead and SE cable to the meter and to the panel are customer owned but I wonder if this was perhaps grandfathered in since its stamped property of Georgia Power and they could fix it ( the cable has some damage in the attic from being yanked after a tree came down on the drop from the street)


Appreciate it if some old timer or someone that has been around more then me has seen either of these instances before and has some logic behind them !

I actually do know something about that sticker (Maintained by Georgia Power).

It is my understanding that at one time Georgia power did offer a maintenance contract to maintain the service. This was good when these houses were new as it brought in money with few expenses. As these houses aged and started to cost the power company some money they bought most of these maintenace contracts back from the customers. I know of one that's still in existance and the customer refuses to sell it back to Georgia power.

You could have them check their power bill and see if they are charged for a maintenance contract or contact the power company and see if it's still active.

It's common for the meter box to be marked "property of Georgia Power" when they provide the meter base. It was probably on the outside when it was new.

 

[GoldDigger]

One possible reason for the 3" tails would be that the wiring runs are old aluminum.
Cutting short would take up less space in the box and remove the temptation to connect directly to the device.

 

[growler]

1) The house is wired with NM cable . 100% copper (not clad) .

One possible reason for the 3" tails would be that the wiring runs are old aluminum.
Cutting short would take up less space in the box and remove the temptation to connect directly to the device.

They are just pigtailing useing crimps instead of wire nuts.

There are those that think that crimps or solder is better than wire nuts and they may be right but wire nuts are just so much easier. I still don't know of any local jurisdiction where either crimps or solder are/were required for pigtails. In some jurisdictions the bare copper grounds are required to be twisted and crimped.

There are many jurisdictions in the metro Atlanta area so it's possible that some inspector just like to see it done that way. If you knew the jurisdiction at the time the house was wired you could call and ask.

 

[user 100]

Folks:

Long time user of this site for reference at work, but a visit to my parents house Labor Day weekend brought my first posting.

Their house was built in 1972 in Atlanta Georiga. Questions I have is why the requirement for the below:

1) The house is wired with NM cable . 100% copper (not clad) However, at every device, the NM cable is cut within an inch of entering the box and both the conductor and neutral are crimped to about a 3" tail before entering the device. Lighting circuits, recepticles, switches, all the same. One of the strangest things I have seen. My late grandmothers house , in the same neighborhood turns out to be the same. All the crimps are in good quality electrical tape . Just curious what was the driving force behind this, was this some wonkey requiremnet? I could see if it was aluminum and they did a mechanical crimp to copper but this is all 100% copper. I even thought maybe they did it for a quicker install (kind of a 1970s version of P&S plug tails) to install the devices quicker but they were stab-in outlets so that doesn't make sense... Wondering what made them do this?????

What you are seeing is crimp sleeves insulated with tape- a very common way of splicing wires in houses before wirenuts were popular -1972 wouldn't have been too late for this method, but it was probably in its waning days. This splicing method tends to catch a lot of people off guard the first time they see it, but it was and is still approved by code provided it was done correctly ( tooling spec'd by manufacturer) and taped enough to equal the insulation value of the conductors or covered with a mating cap for the joint- Buchanan four point copper crimp (and their odd, less used three point crimp) topped with rubber sling boot thingy or covered with plastic cap w/retaining ring was particularly popular and so was the stakon crimp with steel sleeves.

I will add too that the way they did the work-pigtailing to those backstabbed connections, imo, was certainly better than daisychaining the backstabs.

 

[mivey]

I actually do know something about that sticker (Maintained by Georgia Power).

It is my understanding that at one time Georgia power did offer a maintenance contract to maintain the service.

I don't remember the maintenance fee but it has been a while. I do know we tried to repair them when possible as GPC would foot the bill. The panels we did have to change out were paid for by GPC but with the new panel you no longer had a sticker so the free ride was over.

As I understood it, GPC owned the panel in an effort to encourage customer connection back in the days when they were trying to get more load on the system. At least I think that's what my boss told me.

Haven't seen one of those in many, many years.

 

[kwired]

Used to see similar markings on old fuse boxes that indicated ownership by the POCO. Though they were not "stickers" they were metal plates riveted to the enclosure. Possibly can find an occasional one of these on a box still in use.

 

[readydave8]

Used to see similar markings on old fuse boxes that indicated ownership by the POCO. Though they were not "stickers" they were metal plates riveted to the enclosure. Possibly can find an occasional one of these on a box still in use.

Seen a lot of the Georgia Power "wiring plan" boxes, fuses and more recent breaker panels both. For a while Georgia Power would pay us to change out if we said it needed it, suddenly lots of customers were getting free or discounted change-outs. Then they tightened up and would pay for the can and main but not branch breakers, around here Georgia Power seems to have stopped taking responsibility for remaining wiring plan services.

 

[readydave8]

Their house was built in 1972 in Atlanta Georiga. Questions I have is why the requirement for the below:

1) The house is wired with NM cable . 100% copper (not clad) However, at every device, the NM cable is cut within an inch of entering the box and both the conductor and neutral are crimped to about a 3" tail before entering the device. Lighting circuits, recepticles, switches, all the same. One of the strangest things I have seen. My late grandmothers house , in the same neighborhood turns out to be the same. All the crimps are in good quality electrical tape . Just curious what was the driving force behind this, was this some wonkey requiremnet? I could see if it was aluminum and they did a mechanical crimp to copper but this is all 100% copper. I even thought maybe they did it for a quicker install (kind of a 1970s version of P&S plug tails) to install the devices quicker but they were stab-in outlets so that doesn't make sense... Wondering what made them do this?????


2) Their service... power comes overhead, hits a weatherhead, enters the house (SE cable) drapes across the attic goes about 25 feet into a brick wall to the meter box. Comes out of the meter box goes another 50 feet or so before it hits the panel. I do not believe it is fused which is scaring me with the loose SE cable draped across the attic. The weirdness here is, the meterbox is stamped PROPERTY OF GEORGiA POWER, and the loadcenter had a sticker stating that it was owned and maintained by Georgia Power. Never heard of the power company owning that far into your house. Georgia Power clearly states on their website and in their blue book that the watherhead and SE cable to the meter and to the panel are customer owned but I wonder if this was perhaps grandfathered in since its stamped property of Georgia Power and they could fix it ( the cable has some damage in the attic from being yanked after a tree came down on the drop from the street)


Appreciate it if some old timer or someone that has been around more then me has seen either of these instances before and has some logic behind them !

1)Is it possible someone extended the wires to make them reach receptacles? I've seen them cut so short that I had to break device to get out, almost like they installed receptacle on roughin and tightened all the way back to source before cutting.

2) As far as entrance cable, I have seen that a few times and it always blew my mind. Pull the meter and SE still hot in the attic. The ones I saw, the SE went into attic at weatherhead, then back out the other side of the house to exterior meter. As if they were trying to get people to steal electricity in their very own attic. Never saw any illegal taps, though, guess that was the pre- grow room era.

 

[growler]

2) Their service... power comes overhead, hits a weatherhead, enters the house (SE cable) drapes across the attic goes about 25 feet into a brick wall to the meter box. Comes out of the meter box goes another 50 feet or so before it hits the panel. I do not believe it is fused which is scaring me with the loose SE cable draped across the attic.

1)

2) As far as entrance cable, I have seen that a few times and it always blew my mind. Pull the meter and SE still hot in the attic. The ones I saw, the SE went into attic at weatherhead, then back out the other side of the house to exterior meter. As if they were trying to get people to steal electricity in their very own attic. Never saw any illegal taps, though, guess that was the pre- grow room era.

Folks there we a lot of houses done that way years ago. I don't think the code addressed this issue until the late 80s.

If you are working on older homes it's quite common not to have over current protection on SE cables running in the attic. They should be secured and not just laying in the attic but for some reason you see a lot of this sort of thing.

 

[kwired]

Folks there we a lot of houses done that way years ago. I don't think the code addressed this issue until the late 80s.

If you are working on older homes it's quite common not to have over current protection on SE cables running in the attic. They should be secured and not just laying in the attic but for some reason you see a lot of this sort of thing.

Was it code or enforcement that changed in the late 80's?

I thought the requirement to have service disconnecting means/overcurrent protection as close to entry as possible was in NEC at least in the 50's or 60's, though I have seen newer installs that don't comply with that - but I blame it on lack of enforcement.

 

[readydave8]

Folks there we a lot of houses done that way years ago. I don't think the code addressed this issue until the late 80s.

If you are working on older homes it's quite common not to have over current protection on SE cables running in the attic. They should be secured and not just laying in the attic but for some reason you see a lot of this sort of thing.

Yes I see a lot of houses with SE laying in attic long ways from meter to panel with no over current protection. But only a few with SE cable entering attic at weatherhead, running across attic, exiting back to outdoors, and then finally getting to meter. So for example firemen could pull meter but it's still got hot SE in attic. Are there a lot of houses like that around Atlanta? I've seen a couple around here and one in Athens, Georgia, but have not worked on many existing houses around Athens or Atlanta.

And like kwired said, I think the rules for disconnect outside or nearest inside have been in code for a long time (possibly from the beginning?) and were not enforced.

 

[growler]

Was it code or enforcement that changed in the late 80's?

I thought the requirement to have service disconnecting means/overcurrent protection as close to entry as possible was in NEC at least in the 50's or 60's, though I have seen newer installs that don't comply with that - but I blame it on lack of enforcement.

And like kwired said, I think the rules for disconnect outside or nearest inside have been in code for a long time (possibly from the beginning?) and were not enforced.

I don't think so but the only way to know for sure is to find some of the older code books.

 

[readydave8]

I don't think so but the only way to know for sure is to find some of the older code books.

1897 edition of NEC, page 19:

"Automatic Cut-outs . . .
a. Must be placed on all service wires . . . as near as possible to the point they enter the building and inside the walls, and arranged to cut off the entire current from the building"

https://ia601705.us.archive.org/22/items/00701897/0070-1897.pdf

 

[romex jockey]

Georgia, Georgia,
The whole day through
Just that old crimped thing
Keeps Georgia on my mind

I'm say Georgia
Georgia....
A code from you
Comes as sweet and clear
As moonlighters without fines

Other ahj's reach out to me
Trade icons smile tenderly
Still in fitful dreams I see
The suit leads back to you

I said Georgia,
Ooh Georgia, no peace I find
Just an old crimped wire
Keeps Georgia on my mind

~R(w/apologies to Mr. Charles)J~

 

[growler]

1897 edition of NEC, page 19:

"Automatic Cut-outs . . .
a. Must be placed on all service wires . . . as near as possible to the point they enter the building and inside the walls, and arranged to cut off the entire current from the building".

Dave I'm not sure that the 1897 NEC has very much to do with houses that were wired in 1950s or 60s.

For one thing there were very few private homes that had electrical power in the 1890s and most of them that did were useing DC power pretty much for lights only. Electrical power at that time was mainly for commercial and industrial. I don't think you would have found any overhead power distribution lines.

What I'm saying is that as the use of electricity spread with the advent of AC power distribution and wiring materials improved they may not have considered it that important for the power to be fused or disconnected at the point of entry. Allowing for SE cable to be run to panels located in other areas of the home.

It's really hard for me to believe that safety would have been ignored( NEC requirement) all over the country and the idea of not having a disconnect at the point of entry didn't happen for residential until the late 1980s.

I would like to find a code book from the 50s-60s but right off I don't know where to get one.

 

[readydave8]

Dave I'm not sure that the 1897 NEC has very much to do with houses that were wired in 1950s or 60s.

For one thing there were very few private homes that had electrical power in the 1890s and most of them that did were useing DC power pretty much for lights only. Electrical power at that time was mainly for commercial and industrial. I don't think you would have found any overhead power distribution lines.

What I'm saying is that as the use of electricity spread with the advent of AC power distribution and wiring materials improved they may not have considered it that important for the power to be fused or disconnected at the point of entry. Allowing for SE cable to be run to panels located in other areas of the home.

It's really hard for me to believe that safety would have been ignored( NEC requirement) all over the country and the idea of not having a disconnect at the point of entry didn't happen for residential until the late 1980s.

I would like to find a code book from the 50s-60s but right off I don't know where to get one.

OK I'll look some more didn't think about the possibility that it was in 1897 and then gone until late 80's, or possibly late 70's since I seem to remember being aware of rule in the early 80's even though electricians around here were not following it.

 

[readydave8]

Dave I'm not sure that the 1897 NEC has very much to do with houses that were wired in 1950s or 60s.

For one thing there were very few private homes that had electrical power in the 1890s and most of them that did were useing DC power pretty much for lights only. Electrical power at that time was mainly for commercial and industrial. I don't think you would have found any overhead power distribution lines.

What I'm saying is that as the use of electricity spread with the advent of AC power distribution and wiring materials improved they may not have considered it that important for the power to be fused or disconnected at the point of entry. Allowing for SE cable to be run to panels located in other areas of the home.

It's really hard for me to believe that safety would have been ignored( NEC requirement) all over the country and the idea of not having a disconnect at the point of entry didn't happen for residential until the late 1980s.

I would like to find a code book from the 50s-60s but right off I don't know where to get one.

My library is quite limited,but here's what I found:

1956 NEC, 2351 a. ". . .disconnecting means. . . located at a readily accessible point nearest to the entrance of the conductors, either inside or outside building wall."

1965, similar language at 230-70 (b)

1975, is at 230-72 (c)

1984, is at 230-70 (a)

All my other books are newer, so I don't know about 1897-1956, but suspect that it's been there all along

 

[user 100]

My library is quite limited,but here's what I found:

1956 NEC, 2351 a. ". . .disconnecting means. . . located at a readily accessible point nearest to the entrance of the conductors, either inside or outside building wall."

1965, similar language at 230-70 (b)

1975, is at 230-72 (c)

1984, is at 230-70 (a)

All my other books are newer, so I don't know about 1897-1956, but suspect that it's been there all along

It appears it has been there, sort of...

From the 1899 NEC:

Under the "constant potential section" -( I found the entire text of the 1899 code online, but didn't read the entire thing)

22. Switches

a) "Must be placed on all service wires either overhead or underground, in a readily accessible space as near as possible to the point where the wires enter the building and arranged to cut off the entire current."