240 volt , 3 phase , need neutral

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Davebones

Senior Member
Have a panel about 400 ft from main office building . Its just 3 phase 4 wires ( 240 v high leg ) , no neutral just the ground . Having a pond pump installed and they say they have to have 3 phases ( 240 v ) plus a neutral . any suggestions to get a neutral without trying to pull one in ?
 

rlundsrud

Senior Member
Location
chicago, il, USA
A transformer would be an option, I don't know how cost effective it might be compared to running a neutral. Do they need the neutral for the pump controller? If so a small isolation transformer might be better suited.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
A transformer would be an option, I don't know how cost effective it might be compared to running a neutral. Do they need the neutral for the pump controller? If so a small isolation transformer might be better suited.
That's what I would do. The motor should never need the neutral, so their saying it needs it should be a red flag. It must be a controller or something that needs it, but be very careful with that because if this is for a foreign piece of equipment, they might be saying they need the neutral because for them, line voltage is 415Y240V, so to get 240V they do need the neutral and if they are using it to run controls, they would be 240V single phase controls.
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Yes , its just for control power . It only feeds a small timer and a ground detector . We talked with the vendor about installing one and they are "freaking out " saying that would violate their UL listing . Would say we are talking about less than a amp !
 

Davebones

Senior Member
The motor is straight 230 vac , 3 phase . All they are doing is taping off L1 to a circuit breaker to get their 120 volt control . They are saying we can't " Change " anything in their cabinet and they have to have the neutral .
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Have a panel about 400 ft from main office building . Its just 3 phase 4 wires ( 240 v high leg ) , no neutral just the ground . Having a pond pump installed and they say they have to have 3 phases ( 240 v ) plus a neutral . any suggestions to get a neutral without trying to pull one in ?
Never mind, after typing a rather longwinded response I realized that I was simply restating the obvious.
 
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GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The motor is straight 230 vac , 3 phase . All they are doing is taping off L1 to a circuit breaker to get their 120 volt control . They are saying we can't " Change " anything in their cabinet and they have to have the neutral .
If you cannot change anything inside the panel, then you could still provide a zig-zag wound grounding transformer or a delta-wye isolation transformer external to the device to supply a synthetic neutral to connect to their unchanged cabinet.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Just bootleg the neutral :)

I can see how 'modifying' the unit by adding a control transformer to provide the necessary 120V control voltage would violate the UL listing...you now have a _different_ system that has not been evaluated by UL.

With that said, I can't see adding a control transformer as making a bad system that will suddenly 'halt and catch fire'. The supplier doesn't want to take responsibility for the change, which means that the change (however reasonable) would void their warranty, and the AHJ will no longer have a valid listing to rely on to decide that the installation is acceptable.

IMHO a local control transformer providing 120V for the control wiring is the 'correct' approach, but pulling a neutral might be the cheapest way to install a system with all the appropriate paperwork in place.

-Jon
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Just use a 1kVA or less control transformer 240V PRI 120/240 SEC w/primary fuse holders. Doesn't require a GES. Just bond secondary neutral to GRD.... and from the sounds of it, in another enclosure.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Just use a 1kVA or less control transformer 240V PRI 120/240 SEC w/primary fuse holders. Doesn't require a GES. Just bond secondary neutral to GRD.... and from the sounds of it, in another enclosure.
Or option 2, hang an outdoor rated potted transformer on the outside of the box and feed it from the 240V in the box. It would need fusing though, and if they don't want you putting a CPT in their box, they probably don't want the fusing either. That makes putting a CPT is a NEMA 3R box yourself a better option actually, you can get the type that have the primary and secondary fuse blocks already mounted to the transformer. just slap it on the side of their box and use close nipples to connect it. Probably cheaper and/or easier than trying to run a neutral conductor in an existing conduit 400'.
 

domnic

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

If you have a 240 volt 4 wire with a ground you have a neutral .
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If you have a 240 volt 4 wire with a ground you have a neutral .

But to use it safely you need to know what phase the equipment connects its control power source to. It must not be the high leg, since the neutral is only a neutral with respect to the A and C phase wires.
 

domnic

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

Check voltage from A to ground and B to ground and C to ground ( ground lug in panel or disconnect ) this will tell witch phase is high leg, do not use high leg with neutral .
 

domnic

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

240 volt 3 phase 4 wire

He said it was a 240v 3 phase with high leg. how do get a high leg without a neutral.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
He said it was a 240v 3 phase with high leg. how do get a high leg without a neutral.
There is a neutral at the transformer and/or main panel, just not at this panel 400 feet away. He is trying to avoid having to pull a neutral 400 feet through an occupied conduit. I don't blame him.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Check voltage from A to ground and B to ground and C to ground ( ground lug in panel or disconnect ) this will tell witch phase is high leg, do not use high leg with neutral .

Stupid response deleted.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
If you cannot change anything inside the panel, then you could still provide a zig-zag wound grounding transformer....
That's what I was thinking, because he would be able to get away with using a tiny little zig-zag if he's only powering controls. But it looks like it'd be a violation of 450.5 since his system is already grounded upstream.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
That's what I was thinking, because he would be able to get away with using a tiny little zig-zag if he's only powering controls. But it looks like it'd be a violation of 450.5 since his system is already grounded upstream.
It would be a violation if you actually grounded the center point. But you would be creating a derived neutral and that neutral will not be bonded to ground, since the hot leads are already ground referenced.
 
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