3 way switch leg colors

[mbrooke]

Code requires that with power coming first into the fixture box black must be joined to the white outgoing switch leg, however at the first switch switch box does white need to reconnect to the black conductor in the outgoing 14/3 or it does not matter (white to white)?

 

[iwire]

I am not following your wording but ultimately you can't end up with two whites (White neutral, White hot) connecting to the fixture.

 

[mbrooke]

I am not following your wording but ultimately you can't end up with two whites (White neutral, White hot) connecting to the fixture.

Correct, and my apologies for poor explanation. :ashamed1:


14/2 power comes into the fixture box where the black supply connects to the white (re-identified black) outgoing switch leg, so far so good. 14/2 then travels to the first 3 way switch box. The white coming into this switch box is now the supply. Does it haave to to connect to any specific color (like black on the outgoing 14/3), or is any place good?

 

[fmtjfw]

Correct, and my apologies for poor explanation. :ashamed1:


14/2 power comes into the fixture box where the black supply connects to the white (re-identified black) outgoing switch leg, so far so good. 14/2 then travels to the first 3 way switch box. The white coming into this switch box is now the supply. Does it haave to to connect to any specific color (like black on the outgoing 14/3), or is any place good?

When 2 conductor NM is used as a switch leg, the source wire is a re-identified white wire. The switched wire (feed to load) is black. with following scenario PWR--a--Fixture--b--S3A--c--S3B

hot (a)black to (b)white to (c)white to common (marked) switch terminal S3B
neutral (a)white to fixture neutral
(b)black to fixture hot and common (marked) switch terminal S3A
(b)black to S3A and S3B unmarked terminals
(b)red to S3A and S3B unmarked terminals

 

[jumper]

Correct, and my apologies for poor explanation. :ashamed1:


14/2 power comes into the fixture box where the black supply connects to the white (re-identified black) outgoing switch leg, so far so good. 14/2 then travels to the first 3 way switch box. The white coming into this switch box is now the supply. Does it haave to to connect to any specific color (like black on the outgoing 14/3), or is any place good?

No specific color. Black, red, pink, orange, etc.

 

[jap]

Code requires that with power coming first into the fixture box black must be joined to the white outgoing switch leg, however at the first switch switch box does white need to reconnect to the black conductor in the outgoing 14/3 or it does not matter (white to white)?

Code doesnt actually require that,,, rather it allows it.

Save yourself some grief next time,,, if power comes into the fixture box first,,,, pull a 14/3 from the light to the first switch,,, that way your color to color from the 1st light to the 1st 3way as far as Black to Black,,, White to White,,, and use the red as the switchleg back up to the light.

What you do between the 2 3 ways is a different story.

That also puts the neutral down at the 1st switch just in case it's needed in the future.

JAP>

 

[mbrooke]

Code doesnt actually require that,,, rather it allows it.

Save yourself some grief next time,,, if power comes into the fixture box first,,,, pull a 14/3 from the light to the first switch,,, that way your color to color from the 1st light to the 1st 3way as far as Black to Black,,, White to White,,, and use the red as the switchleg back up to the light.

What you do between the 2 3 ways is a different story.

That also puts the neutral down at the 1st switch just in case it's needed in the future.

JAP>

Would a noodle be needed for the second switch?


BTW, thanks for the info everyone!

 

[jap]

Would a noodle be needed for the second switch?


BTW, thanks for the info everyone!

No, but maybe some angel hair pasta.......

JAP>

 

[jap]

The way your wiring it the (White reidentified as black at the 1st 3way) would land on the common terminal of the 3 way switch in that box.
You wouldnt be extending the power from that location to anywhere else since in that scenario since you dont have a neutral at the swtiches at all.

Your only dealing with travellers and switch legs between the two 3 way switches,,,, nothing else.

JAP>

 

[jap]

I guess if I was forced to wire it the way you are,,, I'd pull a 14/3 between the two 3 way swiches,,,,make the white and the red the travellers between the 2 3ways and that way the black coming back from the common on the 2nd 3way would match up to the black at the 1st 3way to the light when they were wire nutted togehter.

JAP>

 

[mbrooke]

No, but maybe some angel hair pasta.......

JAP>

:lol::thumbsup:


The way Ive done it is black>white>white to the the common of 2nd SW3. Another guy does it black>white>back to the 2nd SW3. Still Ive seen back>white to the 1st SW3.

 

[jap]

Mine would be

White to the neutral of the fixture at the fixture box
Black at the fixture box tied to White down to the first 3 way landed on common
Red and White for travellers from the 1st 3way to the 2nd
Black from the common on the 2nd 3 way back to the first switch box
Wirenut the 2 blacks together at the 1st box.
Black at the fixture box to Black of the Fixture..... wheewwwww.....


JAP>

 

[mbrooke]

Mine would be

White to the neutral of the fixture at the fixture box
Black at the fixture box tied to White down to the first 3 way landed on common
Red and White for travellers from the 1st 3way to the 2nd
Black from the common on the 2nd 3 way back to the first switch box
Wirenut the 2 blacks together at the 1st box.
Black at the fixture box to Black of the Fixture..... wheewwwww.....


JAP>

That sounds like the best way to do it IMO.

 

[fmtjfw]

I guess if I was forced to wire it the way you are,,, I'd pull a 14/3 between the two 3 way swiches,,,,make the white and the red the travellers between the 2 3ways and that way the black coming back from the common on the 2nd 3way would match up to the black at the 1st 3way to the light when they were wire nutted togehter.

JAP>

You can not use white as a traveller.

 

[fmtjfw]

That sounds like the best way to do it IMO.

you can not use white as a traveller

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You can not use white as a traveller.

You mean as the switch leg... White can be used as a traveller if it is marked IMO... Such as a dead end 3 way

 

[iwire]

You can not use white as a traveller.

I choose not to but I don't think it is prohibited.

 

[jumper]

You can not use white as a traveller.

you can not use white as a traveller

Sure you can, the traveler feeds or is a supply to the other 3 way sw.

 

[fmtjfw]

Here is how I interpret 200.7(C)(1)

Here is how I interpret 200.7(C)(1)

Sure you can, the traveler feeds or is a supply to the other 3 way sw.

The purpose in the limitation of a re-identified white wire use in a switch loop to supply only is that, if the circuit is energized, it will be energized and detectable using a non-contact tickey or voltmeter. It can not be the conductor from the switch to the load because this purpose is violated. A "traveller" conductor may or may not be energized depending on the position of the feeding switch(es) (3 and 4 ways).

200.7(C) Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White or Gray Stripes. Circuits of 50 Volts or More.
(1) If part of a cable assembly that has the insulation permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor by marking tape, painting, or other effective means at its termination and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
If used for a single-pole, 3-way, or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white or gray stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the outlet.

Notes:
1) The last sentence states shall be used only for the supply to the switch. Travellers are not allowed because a traveller is not the supply to the next switch, is a supply to the next switch.

2) 2-way switches do not have this limitation which would allow the use of 2 conductor cables with white reidentified on the load side of the switch to the outlet.

With a little care you can use 2 conductor cables for the feed/switch loop and 3 conductor cables between 3- and 4-way switches without violating 200.7(C)(1).

Further you can use a 3 conductor cable between the outlet point that also contains the feed -- providing the newly required neutral in switch box.

SO if you can do it with standard cables and meet the requirements of 200.7(C)(1) why would you do it another way?

The only reasons I can think of:

1) We didn't have the rule in the past

2) We don't care about the added safety of the new scheme.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I disagree with you on this... Read what it states here-- if used for switch loops then the white cannot be the return. It does not say it cannot be used elsewhere when reidentified. These are 2 different items. We use the white conductor as a hot all the time for 240V. They just don't want the switch leg to the light being the white wire

(1) If part of a cable assembly that has the insulation permanently
reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor by marking tape, painting, or other
effective means at its termination and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification
shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color
other than white, gray, or green.

If used for single-pole,
3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor
with white or gray insulation or three continuous
white or gray stripes shall be used only for the supply
to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the
switch to the outlet.