8-3 NM-B for hot tubs?

[George Stolz]

Is that saying the existing panel board can be fed from romex. But the Hot tub has to be in conduit, correct?

I would say yes. But I still maintain the exception to 680.25 is not needed to do so.

Even casting 680.42(C) aside, 680.21(A)(4) permits NM inside a single-family dwelling.

 

[stickboy1375]

I would say yes. But I still maintain the exception to 680.25 is not needed to do so.

Even casting 680.42(C) aside, 680.21(A)(4) permits NM inside a single-family dwelling.

I agree, ART 680.21 (A)(4) says romex is okay.... and also 680.42 (C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations.

 

[suemarkp]

This is what it reads...

Exception: Branch circuits for permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or hot tub equipment can originate from an existing panelboard supplied by a cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding (bonding) conductor within its outer sheath.

Is that saying the existing panel board can be fed from romex. But the Hot tub has to be in conduit, correct?

What part of the code are you quoting? I don't see words like that in 680.25 at all. This, and the subsequent few posts after it, are focusing on branch circuits and not feeders. It sounds like Minuteman was installing small subpanels to supply his hot tub. This would not be an existing panel, and the wire to that panel would be a feeder not a branch circuit. Why a branch circuit can use romex, but a feeder can not, I don't know.

 

[stickboy1375]

What part of the code are you quoting? I don't see words like that in 680.25 at all. This, and the subsequent few posts after it, are focusing on branch circuits and not feeders. It sounds like Minuteman was installing small subpanels to supply his hot tub. This would not be an existing panel, and the wire to that panel would be a feeder not a branch circuit. Why a branch circuit can use romex, but a feeder can not, I don't know.

I got my quote of 680.25 from Mike Holts PDF file on ART 680, I looked it up in my code book afterwords and was wondering where that last bit of info came from myself...

When I install a Hot Tub, I usually install a disconnect with gfi protection and freeze alarm built in since we do have 4 seasons here in Connecticut, (Would be a real shame to see a Hot Tub freeze solid) 5' away from the tub usually located on the house and 6-3 rx feeds that thru the back of the disconnect... then i use carflex and thhn to feed the hot tub...

 

[suemarkp]

I believe that would be OK since this sounds like a branch circuit with a supplemental GFCI/Disconnect. Romex can be used inside for branch circuits and terminate in the backside of a panel on an outside wall.

I used to think having any overcurrent down stream turned this into a feeder. But Don pointed out that if the overcurrent device is not there to protect smaller wires (like a subpanel would), and its the same size or larger than the breaker at the source panel, then the run is not a feeder but just another overcurrent device on a branch circuit.

 

[Cavie]

The exception in question is a misprint for 680.12 (A). the words "Existing Brance Circuits" have been subsituted for "Existing Feeders". RX is allowed all the way to the tub as per 680.42 (C)

 

[hillbilly]

"RX is allowed all the way to the tub as per 680.42 (C)".

That's correct....if the hot tub is located inside the home.
The first three words of 680.42(C) are "In the interior". This paragraph allows the use of NM for the INTERIOR portion of the wiring that feeds the tub.
If the tub is located outside....When the wiring transforms from interior to exterior, the NM must stop there and the method used must have a insulated grounding conductor (and be rated for the conditions of use).

Article 334 Non-Metallic Sheathed Cable: Type NM,...
334.10 Uses Permitted
(A) Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in NORMALLY DRY LOCATIONS....
Underground in conduit is not a normally dry loation.

Article 680 Swimming Pools, Fountains, and Similiar Installations
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or HOT TUB.. INSTALLED OUTDOORS...SHALL COMPLY.. WITH THE PROVISIONS OF PART I and II.. of this article...

PART II of Article 680.....Permanently Installed Pools
680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods
(1) General........ANY wiring method employed shall contain a INSULATED copper equipment GROUNDING CONDUCTOR......not smaller than 12 AWG.

You can't run NM all the way to a hot tub that's located outside.
It's not rated for the location (wet) and the grounding conductor is not insulated.
Just my opinion
steve

 

[iwire]

I agree with Steve.

 

[stickboy1375]

The exception in question is a misprint for 680.12 (A). the words "Existing Brance Circuits" have been subsituted for "Existing Feeders". RX is allowed all the way to the tub as per 680.42 (C)

evryone knows Romex is only allowed inside, no matter how you cut it... so the only way that is legal is if the Tub is inside...

 

[Cavie]

Sorry I ment 680.25 (A) Exception. not 680.12.
Since I aparently don't understand 680.42 (C) which is under the main heading of OUTDOOR INSTLATIONS, Wireing to motors and controls etc,etc. Will someone please explain it to me? Don't cahters 4,5,6,7,8, modify 1,2,3 ?? They did the last I knew.

 

[stickboy1375]

Sorry I ment 680.25 (A) Exception. not 680.12.
Since I aparently don't understand 680.42 (C) which is under the main heading of OUTDOOR INSTLATIONS, Wireing to motors and controls etc,etc. Will someone please explain it to me? Don't cahters 4,5,6,7,8, modify 1,2,3 ?? They did the last I knew.

The nec is saying IMO, you can use a type of cable assembly that contains a copper equipment conductor which is insulated OR enclosed within the outer sheath, and no smaller than #12, BUT to run that type of cable outdoors it would have to be type UF... IMO., But much smarter people on this site than me... older and wiser I should say...

 

[George Stolz]

Sorry I ment 680.25 (A) Exception. not 680.12.
Since I aparently don't understand 680.42 (C) which is under the main heading of OUTDOOR INSTLATIONS, Wireing to motors and controls etc,etc.

Around here, we are allowed to enter the canopies of lights, disconnect enclosures, and whatnot. If the romex is terminated immediately upon exiting the "interior" of the structure, it passes.

This has been discussed in the past, I could look for links if you'd like. If memory serves, there was much opinion and little meat in that discussion. IMO, it is reasonable to terminate outdoors when you get away from romex as soon as you can. This is not well supported by code, but, in practice...

Anyway, with that in mind, I see this as romex being allowed to a point, but a transistion to wet rated wiring methods as being required once outside.

These sections relieve us from having to use the normally required pool methods, allowing NM as a substitute.

JMO,

 

[Cavie]

My AHJ also allows RX in A/C whips so there is not much I can do about R/X in conduit outside.

 

[stickboy1375]

My AHJ also allows RX in A/C whips so there is not much I can do about R/X in conduit outside.

i dont know why he would allow that, my thought NEC should describe any conduit outside as a wet location..? any other thoughts on this, I read an article in NEC digest about rx in conduit outdoors and they did not approve of it, I will try and look it up for all....

 

[stickboy1375]

My AHJ also allows RX in A/C whips so there is not much I can do about R/X in conduit outside.

ALso does he approve it or not know it's installed in your A/C whip... My town has 1 inspector for all building trades... I had one inspector ask me why I had a Main Breaker in a Meter, (the panel was 60' away inside).... got me...

 

[stickboy1375]

Around here, we are allowed to enter the canopies of lights, disconnect enclosures, and whatnot. If the romex is terminated immediately upon exiting the "interior" of the structure, it passes.

This has been discussed in the past, I could look for links if you'd like. If memory serves, there was much opinion and little meat in that discussion. IMO, it is reasonable to terminate outdoors when you get away from romex as soon as you can. This is not well supported by code, but, in practice...

Anyway, with that in mind, I see this as romex being allowed to a point, but a transistion to wet rated wiring methods as being required once outside.

These sections relieve us from having to use the normally required pool methods, allowing NM as a substitute.

JMO,

I never have a problem installing a 3r box on the exterior of a building and feeding it with a RX type cable, I always use duct seal around the connector before final fastening...

 

[resistance]

Iwires correct on this one.

We just run our feeds in conduit--using #6 thhn/w an insulated ground, and call it a day. This way all the questions are out the door. The code is clear: #8=40amps. Our state has sent registered contractors mail on the topic of #8 NM being used for any ampacity over 40amps is a clear violation. Also, Art 334.80 doesn't give the right to use #8NM over 40amps, but clearly states: "provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that for a 60 degree rated conductor."